From Paralysis to Progress: Sam Laura Brown ON Truth About Perfectionism & Strategies For Growth

[00:00:00] Krati: Help me understand why perfectionist despite the surface definition may not be such a great thing to be and how does the mind of a perfectionist work just so my listeners have a good understanding of what it is that we are discussing here.

[00:00:14] Sam: There are so many misconceptions surrounding perfectionism and one of the big ones is that, you know, it’s just that cute thing that you’ll say in a job interview of like, Oh yeah, one of my biggest flaws, I’m a perfectionist, or like a lot of people say it with pride that they’re a perfectionist and what they often mean when they say that is they’re more so talking to that they are someone who strives for excellence.

[00:00:37] They’re very ambitious. They have a great attention to detail, but while that can kind of coincide with perfectionism, it’s not really what perfectionism is. And so when it comes to understanding perfectionism and the way that that works. First of all, it’s just really a mindset. It’s not like if you’re a perfectionist, you’re always going to be a perfectionist, but the way that it works [00:01:00] is that when we are in that perfectionist mindset, we are thinking that if we just do everything perfectly, act perfectly, look perfect, Then we will avoid shame, judgment, and blame.

[00:01:12] That’s the definition that Brene Brown gives that I love so much. And she’s a very well known shame and vulnerability researcher has so much expertise on that topic. And it really is that perfectionism is a strategy to avoid shame. And so there are a lot of signs and symptoms of that. We can get into what that really looks like, but it tends to be a lot of it. Like overworking and trying to prove, and it’s really coming from this place of inadequacy in this fear that it will be found out that we’re not good enough.

[00:01:45] When you’re starting a business, what tends to come up for a lot of perfectionists, because there’s so much uncertainty in business is that it’s all those avoidant behaviors, because if we can’t do it perfectly, then we’d rather not do it at all. So there’s a lot of [00:02:00] procrastinating, overthinking, fear of judgment, the all or nothing mindset, burnout.

[00:02:04] all of that going on. And it really is like, once I started to understand and piece together what perfectionism is, because I never identified as a perfectionist because I was like, well, I’m not perfect enough to be a perfectionist. They are the people who have so much attention to detail. They’re meticulous, like all of those things.

[00:02:24] And I wasn’t that, like I’d have in the boot of my car. I’d be driving around for a year With all of this stuff in the boot of my car that I just like hadn’t taken out. Like I loved being organized, but I wasn’t organized so many things like that. But when I really saw the emotional side of perfectionism and how that manifests, and for me, it came up in business when I started to notice it.

[00:02:44] That’s when I really started to understand like, Oh, it’s not actually a good thing, but it’s not a bad thing either. It’s just a mindset. And I want to learn how to change that mindset. So I’m not doing all of these things that I don’t [00:03:00] want to be doing. Like, I don’t want to be procrastinating. I don’t want to be overthinking or like staying busy with unimportant things because I’m too scared to give a full effort at the thing that matters.

[00:03:08] And what if that fails or what if it succeeds and I’m not relatable anymore? Um, so really understanding perfectionism and those misconceptions of like actually understanding how it shows up and how it’s manifested really has given me so much empowerment because now I have language around it. And that then gave me access to figuring out solutions and researching and experimenting and now working with clients.

[00:03:34] Who are perfectionists as well. It’s just really like having that language without having it be a bad toxic thing or having to be this good, amazing thing. It’s like, it’s just a mindset. And how can I get that mindset on my side? That’s what I really love to work on. But there are so many misconceptions about it.

[00:03:51] So if you have any others you want to talk about, just let me know.

[00:03:54] Krati: Let’s start with the signs and symptoms first, because I think that would just help us go deeper into it.

[00:03:59] Sam: Yeah, [00:04:00] so there are five signs of perfectionism that I have noticed after working with over a thousand perfectionist entrepreneurs, and these can manifest in slightly different ways at different stages of business that people are in. But there is overthinking, procrastination, burnout. The all or nothing mindset and fear of judgment that those are the ways that when it comes to perfectionism, like they are the ways that we try to protect ourselves or the symptoms of us trying to do that.

[00:04:29] So often there’ll be, for example, a lot of overthinking and procrastination and so someone will try and like do all the things at once and they’ll burn themselves out doing that and just kind of be in this cycle and all of that. Underpinned by this fear of judgment, what will others. doing a lot of people pleasing, saying no when they want to say yes, to others saying yes to others when they want to say no.

[00:04:51] Krati: Right.

[00:04:51] Sam: so we can go into, I have so much to say on any of those, we could go into it, but, uh, really understanding that it is [00:05:00] more typically avoidant behaviors. Some perfectionists definitely go more into the overworking and over preparing and that side of things. Uh, but a lot of perfectionists who don’t realize they’re perfectionists are on that more avoidant side when it comes to how their perfectionist behaviors manifest.

[00:05:19] Krati: I would say That a lot of the times the delays in my work happens because i’m trying to perfect it But I don’t think I I really identify with the label of a perfectionist Because I don’t see a lot of what you’ve mentioned here I don’t see that in my behavior the delays only happen with me when i’m lacking clarity if I have clarity I would work to an exacting standard But it’s not necessarily me procrastinating or overthinking it.

[00:05:45] I just need to get to that point of clarity. So how would we contrast that like with someone who has high standards with someone who is a perfectionist and also like how would a person be responding to the sort [00:06:00] of whatever it is that they’re working with as and when the projects are piling up or getting more intense or there is an expectation of, uh, you know, a high performance.

[00:06:09] Sam: yeah, I’d love to talk about the growth mindset because it’s highly relevant to that question because it’s not the case that someone who is doing something as you said to an exacting standard is a perfectionist and if someone’s trying to do something perfectly, they’re a perfectionist. Perfectionism and when that’s at play, it’s really about like the energy you’re working from and the Thoughts and feelings that are fueling the way that you were deciding to keep working on it or not.

[00:06:35] If it’s from this place of I need to prove that I’m good enough, this has to be perfect. I have to get this right and that line of thinking and that would be perfectionism, but it might not be to a large scale. Like it might not be a, um, a thought pattern that is there quite a lot. But when it comes to the growth mindset, you really can approach things that might look the same from the outside. So I don’t think there’s a [00:07:00] typical, like here’s what it looks like for perfectionist or someone in a growth mindset that we could get into specifics.

[00:07:05] of like the cycles and patterns I see in my clients

[00:07:08] Um, but when it comes to the growth mindset, when someone is in a growth mindset, and we can go into what that means, uh, because it doesn’t mean you love personal development books, uh, there’s more to it. When you’re in the growth mindset that you actually believe that your abilities, your intelligence, your skills can be developed and improved with practice.

[00:07:32] And so when someone is in a growth mindset, they actually live by the mantra that it’s better to have tried and failed than to have never tried at all. A perfectionist, when they’re perfecting things, they’re trying to avoid failure. And if they can’t get it just right, they’ll often abandon it. And not do it, although do a lot of overworking and like just revisiting things and rehashing things that don’t need to be.

[00:07:53] They don’t actually, it’s so hard for perfectionists to say when enough is enough. And that’s why perfectionists often work up [00:08:00] until the last minute because they need someone else to say, that’s all you can do. You have to actually turn in the work now, the assignment or the, um, client work you’re doing or whatever it is, like you.

[00:08:10] don’t actually get to continue. You have to have it be done now. Um, so when you’re in a growth mindset, that means that you are still doing things to a very high standard, but you’re actually able to do it to a high standard because you’re not making it mean all of these different things about whether or not you’re good enough as a person, there’s this healthy separation between yourself and the work that you’re doing so that someone, when they’re in the growth mindset, If their work is criticized, that doesn’t feel like a personal attack.

[00:08:39] It doesn’t feel like, Oh, maybe I’m not good enough. When a perfectionist work is criticized, it feels like the biggest personal attack. Or if they are rejected, say in a business setting, if someone doesn’t want to work with them, uh, or leaves a negative comment or an email that feels like they are saying that there is something wrong with me.

[00:08:59] And so [00:09:00] when we’re in a growth mindset, because we have that healthy detachment from work, and we can talk about practical ways to like get into that growth mindset, but because there’s that detachment in a healthy way that that person is often finding it easier to be committed and focused that they can actually like know, okay, where are the Needle moving most important edits to be made and I’m going to make those edits. Versus a perfectionist will typically make edits and be polishing based on the perception of themselves. Do they look smart? Do they look good? Do they, are they being articulate? Are they saying everything right? Are they doing it how they should? That’s the way that perfectionist will be thinking. A growth minded person will be thinking more so about the work itself and won’t be equating that.

[00:09:50] work with themselves. So they’ll make different kinds of edits and they’ll be able to actually call it and say like, I am happy with this. And it’s not because I feel like the [00:10:00] clouds have parted. And I’m like, this is the most amazing thing. Cause a lot of times perfectionists have that clarity because they feel like I’ve done it right.

[00:10:08] That’s a different kind of clarity to when you can say this is sufficient, I’m moving on to other things because I’m not like, if this doesn’t work, I’m not going to take it as a personal affront.

[00:10:19] Krati: Sometimes I would obsessively work on something, but eventually reach a point where you’re like, I’m done with this. This is not going to get any better than this. This needs to go out. So sometimes it gets like that. And then it’s hard to tell whether, you know, you’re doing the right thing or whether you’re just exhausted and then you’re sending it out or whether it’s a deadline.

[00:10:37] But would it be safe to say to anyone who’s listening and now trying to figure out whether their behavior falls in that category, is it safe to say that if you have a pattern of not getting things done not sending them out and just obsessively working on something till you’ve exhausted yourself That is a perfectionistic That’s just like a perfectionist behavior

[00:10:58] Sam: So there’s like the [00:11:00] two sides of it. And I actually have a quiz called the perfectionism quiz that we can link up if anyone’s wanting to like, figure out because we like rate you in terms of what’s your biggest sign of Perfectionism and like what percentage so you can see like what’s going on for you But the not taking action is typically it’s one of two ways. And I mentioned the quiz, cause there’s a question on this. It’s typically either not taking action or it’s over preparing to a fault.

[00:11:28] Like a lot of perfectionists won’t be like, Oh, I don’t like, I do take action. They’re like always busy. And so is the one who’s not taking action. I think generally perfectionists are pretty much always busy doing something, thinking about things like just feeling so much shame and guilt for all the things they haven’t done or haven’t done well enough.

[00:11:48] Uh, but when it comes to not taking action, that’s a big one that I see that was how it manifested for me. But there are other areas of my life. For example, when it came to becoming a parent, to becoming a mom, I [00:12:00] have three little ones that when I was pregnant with my daughter, and there’s so much uncertainty in that whole journey, , That I went into over preparing, like I wasn’t not taking action.

[00:12:10] I was doing all the research. I was buying all the things I was preparing the house. I was like doing so much because that action gave me a sense of control and safety. And so it might not necessarily be for someone that they’re not taking action. But that for me in business is how it manifested, because for example, with preparing for a baby, like there’s kind of, you know, a set criteria that you could do of like, you need to buy these things.

[00:12:38] It’s like, it’s kind of more defined, but when it comes to business that you don’t know what to do, because there’s no one to tell you there’s a million ways it’ll work. You have to do things for longer than you want to do them because it’s going to take time and trial and error. You don’t know if you’re doing the right thing.

[00:12:55] You’re there’s like validation and criticism and all this stuff going on as well. That for me, when [00:13:00] it came to business, I was just so frozen that I was like, I actually can’t bring myself to, when I started my business as a blog, I can’t bring myself. But even the thought of telling my now husband about it, telling my friends and family who was so supportive and who loved me so much and have never made these snide remarks at me or anything.

[00:13:21] Even then, I was like, I literally can’t tell them if. If one of them so much as even ask like, Oh, what’s a blog? I will shut it down because I felt so insecure about it and ashamed to think like, who do I think I am thinking? I have an opinion worth sharing on this topic of personal development, which I was very new to.

[00:13:39] I wasn’t even sharing my own opinions, but it just felt. So, uh, like such a threat to my relationships, to my lovability, to be doing something and giving it a full effort and that effort not being well received or not resulting in success. [00:14:00] And so it was so much easier to be like, Oh, well, the blog would be doing better if I was just posting consistently.

[00:14:06] And if I was just doing this and like, Procrastinate and research learning is a big thing for perfectionists because we love learning. A lot of us love learning the personal development, but it’s scary to put that into practice. So there’ll tend to be a lot of consumption with some perfectionists who aren’t taking action.

[00:14:24] There’ll be a lot of overconsumption of knowledge and information. Certifications, degrees, just trying to get all the ticks of approval, and then there’s like other ones as well who are overpreparing and overworking and could like never let done be done either, um, but a more so like taking action, but still from a place of.

[00:14:45] I’m not good enough. I need to get this right. I need to do everything I can. So it’s really just the place that it’s coming from. So it’s more when your question about how would someone identify as a perfectionist, it’s more so [00:15:00] the thoughts and feelings that are fueling the way that they’re showing up, no matter what area of life it is, perfectionists and like the growth mindset, like that scale, uh, typically in different areas of life, you’ll be at different places On that spectrum, on that scale.

[00:15:17] So in relationships, you might believe like, actually, it’s really important to work at a relationship and it’s not meant to be love at first sight and act like there will be disagreements and we can work through them or as some people in relationships are thinking like, no, like it’s either they’re the one or they’re not the one and have that very perfectionist mindset towards relationships in hobbies.

[00:15:37] People tend to be more growth minded in hobbies because you’re doing it just for fun, but still people can really get into that mindset with hobbies. But with different areas of life, people will have different mindsets. And I love working with entrepreneurs because for me, business was where it came up.

[00:15:53] I like in school, in university, I have a law degree, a finance degree, a diploma of French, talk about all the like degrees and [00:16:00] things. And perfectionism was a problem for me. When I was studying, I did a lot of all nighters last minute, uh, cramming for exams, burnout, but because there was a deadline, because there was a clearly defined success and failure that I could still do pretty well.

[00:16:17] But in business, there was no one keeping me accountable. There was no defined success and failure, so to speak. Um, there was no, like, if you just do this and this will definitely work. So I just was frozen when it came to business. So that’s why I’m So passionate about figuring it out for myself and then helping other people with it too.

[00:16:37] Krati: That helps and you know, I’ve been I have learned so much on the subject mostly from you and your podcast. I think it’s like one of the best resources on the subject out there. Then I read Walter Isaacson’s book on Steve Jobs. I’ve talked about it before on the show. I did. So let me talk about it once again, because that man, I think Steve Jobs defines perfectionism.[00:17:00]

[00:17:00] I don’t know if you’ve read his book or not, but he

[00:17:03] Sam: I’ve read some of it. Yeah. It’s

[00:17:06] Krati: the very like definition of it. There’s there’s no way he wasn’t a perfect. He was 100 percent a perfectionist like down to the the Pieces of the product that no one would ever see were done perfectly. Like the paint was perfect, the texture of the paint was perfect.

[00:17:23] Even if it cost him like a fortune, it wouldn’t matter. Like even if he, the budget went to hell, he would still do it. And even if it meant delaying product launches, he would still do it. He would obsessively perfect each product. But out of that very I want to say very toxic perfectionism because he like reading the book.

[00:17:46] He didn’t seem like a very happy person, especially when he was in the grips of those sort of that, that madness to get like the perfect, perfect product out there. But I don’t know, like, uh, I wouldn’t comment too much on that because, you know, [00:18:00] it’s only Steve Jobs can tell us and, yeah, he’s not here

[00:18:02] So what I’m asking you is out of that perfectionism came Apple came like one of the greatest companies, a company that defines innovation that really changed the world. Out of that came the success that Steve Jobs enjoyed the name he made for himself, a company like Apple and all the amazing products that it, you know, has given us.

[00:18:25] So somebody could look at that and think. See, perfectionism works for you. And that was my thought as I was reading the book. That was my thought, because I have my mom who’s always telling me, Oh, you just, you get too obsessive about little details. Doesn’t matter. It’s fine. It’s fine. And I would be like, look, when you work to this insane standard and his standards were insane because he was obsessing even over like the nuts and bolts that nobody’s ever going to care about what he cared.

[00:18:55] Um, and it seemed. reading the book it seems like yes that is the way to be [00:19:00] if you want to really really like reach a certain level of performance in life so in that context now talk to me about like is there a healthy aspect to perfectionism can’t that ever like because in steve jobs’s case it did lead to a lot of wonderful things i mean we also know he faced a lot of health concerns a lot of burnout because of how obsessive he was with perfection yeah Tell me how you feel when you hear a case like that because I’m sure you have heard of such cases having worked with so many people Yeah

[00:19:34] Sam: for sure, perfectionism

[00:19:36] Krati: Yeah

[00:19:37] Sam: feels hard to let go of because It works. So to speak that pretty much every perfectionist is like, but I’ve gotten to where I am. And like, I work with so many people who have so much success in their life because of the perfectionism. That’s what they think in their brain.

[00:19:53] And it is really that growth mindset and comparing that with perfectionism that I guess we can [00:20:00] look at a few things. If it’s like, okay, if Steve jobs, his goal was to innovate for the world at his own expense. then he has achieved that goal. And there’s no question that he’s had a profound impact on the world, the way we think, the tools we have.

[00:20:16] I have a Mac book and an iPhone and all the things. So there’s no question about that. But if we look at like, imagine if he wasn’t burnt out, imagine if he had healthy relationships with the people that he worked with, imagine if it wasn’t such a personal thing for him about how well the products did.

[00:20:35] And he could look at it a bit more objectively, like his story as well. Like he got kicked out of Apple and then he went to Pixar and then like all of that stuff that happened as well, that it’s not to say that it’s good or bad or anything like that. But I think the most important thing is to look at like, what are your goals as a human?

[00:20:53] And something that is really important for me and the people that I work with is like, I actually want to enjoy my life. I [00:21:00] actually want to. not do everything at my own expense with pushing and forcing and nitpicking myself. Like a lot of it is a self talk and like you live with yourself for your whole life and if all day long you are telling yourself, especially if you’re someone who’s a high achiever and like you’ll be in the equivalent to yourself of a parent who’s like, Oh, you got an a, but it wasn’t the a plus.

[00:21:23] Like if that’s your relationship with yourself, Yes, you might innovate things for the world and have a, a remarkable impact on the world in that sense. But if like day to day your experience, I believe that matters. And I work with people who actually, for their business they’re building, they wanna enjoy having a business.

[00:21:43] They don’t wanna feel like the worst boss they’ve ever had, who demands the most and appreciates them the least. And with that perfectionist mindset, that’s the day-to-Day experience is nothing is ever good enough. So just be a bit better, just be a bit more motivated. Just try harder, just work longer.

[00:21:59] Like that’s [00:22:00] the way that we operate in our brains and it’s, and it is validated by the world in so many ways that people like Steve’s jobs are applauded. I’m sure he received a lot of validation along the way for that behavior in school. Like it just felt so reinforced because I’d leave things to the last minute and I get an A I’m like, okay.

[00:22:19] And then I tried to do it early. And like in a non perfectionist way, so it seemed. And I wouldn’t do as well. I was like, oh, perfectionism, like, and I didn’t think of it that way, but I was like, oh, doing it the last minute, even though that burns me out. I get a better grade because it’s worth it. Not looking at like, but do I actually retain anything that I learned the night before?

[00:22:38] Like what’s my actual experience like long term when I approach things that way versus like, Oh, but did I get the A? So I think it really comes down to what are the goals. And for someone they might be like, I actually just want to innovate for the world and do these things. And I don’t really care about my relationship with myself.

[00:22:55] And I don’t really. Care what my day to day experience is like and if [00:23:00] I’m just being a total dick to myself all day long I’m fine with that then do as you please But I just I don’t believe that and I don’t want to model that for my kids I don’t want to model that kind of like relationship with yourself And I also just find it I have a much better time and I work way less hours than when I was approaching it a perfectionist way.

[00:23:23] Being more growth minded, I get more done in less time. I don’t burn out. I do higher quality work. And it’s like, you have to be willing to let go of the perfectionist behaviors and experiment with doing it in a growth minded way to be able to see that actually like I can do better work ahead of time than at the last minute.

[00:23:43] But when I was believing I did my best work at the last minute, I never got to see that. I never got to fully step into like, but what if I did it ahead of time and I didn’t make it mean stuff about me. So yeah, that’s what I’d say to the Steve Jobs and I, I get remarkable impact, but [00:24:00] was he a happy person as you said, and it’s not about being happy all the time, but it doesn’t sound like he had.

[00:24:06] That many healthy relationships that he had a very turbulent career, a lot of burnout and those kinds of things as well. So yeah.

[00:24:16] Krati: that is amazing the way you analyze it and I love your perspective on it And I hope like it stays with anybody who just You know who’s listening to this episode because that was my as I finished that book. I mean I was so impressed with this person that I was reading about I was like, this is amazing But I constantly had this thought in my head that if this is what it takes To get to the top of the mountain that I’m never gonna get there because I am NOT someone who would ever be okay with someone else’s Feeling like shit because of how I reacted to their work I would never be okay with being someone who just destroyed someone else’s confident because you know I have these amazing amazingly high standards and you couldn’t reach it Well, you suck or you’re not good enough then to be in the room with [00:25:00] me.

[00:25:00] And Yeah, that did stay with me that if this is what it takes No, thank you, because I would not want to be this person and I really wonder if Um, because obviously he was, he helped write that biography after having traveled a very long road. And you know, we often distort the experiences of our past life.

[00:25:21] Maybe he didn’t do that, but he would, he would still give like a cleaner version of it or from a more mature perspective. So it made me wonder a lot, like what was the state of his mind as he was going through all of this? Because, yeah, he had very high standards. Was he ever like just Satisfied fully satisfied with himself ever allowing himself to just rest and feeling like yes, I did it It’s all good.

[00:25:48] I can stop now at least for a little while I wonder if he ever did that because I didn’t see that in the book all that much So you are so so right you have to make that choice if you’re happy to sacrifice your [00:26:00] well being I know of people who do that. I know of social workers who get so obsessive about getting it, right?

[00:26:05] Because you know They have to get it right because of the kind of work that they’re doing and they’re they’re happy to sacrifice Their well being to do it. They’re happy to end up in the hospital um with the breakdown

[00:26:17] Sam: Yeah, and it’s looking at like, I think that’s another great example, obviously, social work is such an important job and role that we have in the world that people are doing and that it’s looking at like, is the person who’s been so obsessive and perfectionistic about it, who has a mental breakdown and now needs to be hospitalized.

[00:26:35] Is that actually having the best overall impact versus like learning how to be growth minded and so many perfectionists, like it is so scary to our brains to let go of this survival behavior that has served us. And to be like, but look at like the people that I’ve helped in the grades that I’ve got it at the jobs that I’ve done and all those different things, but it’s just kind of what I love doing in [00:27:00] these podcast interviews are great for it to seem like, but there is actually a better way where you achieve more without the downsides.

[00:27:07] It’s not like, okay, you can achieve less and settle and you’ll enjoy your life more because a lot of people. When there are topics like rest and feeling satisfied, they’re like, okay, but like my hunger and my drive is going to vanish. And maybe I can make peace with that. And I, you know, because I don’t want to do things at my own expense, but when we do it in that perfectionist way, that’s when it’s at our own expense.

[00:27:31] And we do it in a growth minded way. We achieve more, we get it done more easily.

[00:27:36] Krati: Yeah

[00:27:37] Sam: We don’t have to be hospitalized for burnout for stress We don’t have to take these like extended periods of leave all these like sabbaticals just because it’s like I’m so done with working And I’ve seen so many people take these sabbaticals of like I’m so burnt out But I can’t control myself to not work unless I like this all or nothing mindset unless I completely switch off and then they come back to work But [00:28:00] they approach it the same way in their brain So they just end up in this cycle of like needing these big breaks all the time And I just think it’s so helpful.

[00:28:09] Like once I learned about the growth mindset, which Carol Dweck she created that terminology and teaches on that. Um, and the fixed mindset that perfectionists are in that, like that actually is something that will have you show it up more and. Achieving more. I know it’s so hard to believe at first of like bit perfectionism really seems to work.

[00:28:32] And yeah, it’s also looking at some of the nuance, like with Steve Jobs, like he had Steve Wozniak, who was probably like cleaning up a lot of the messes and things like that. And that Steve Jobs tends not to be quoted as a great leader that he is referred to in the creativity space, the innovation space.

[00:28:50] And all of that. But when it comes to leadership and that side of things, relationships, he tends not to be the go to man [00:29:00] for that kind of thing. Uh, not that we have to be the go to person for everything, but I think it’s just really healthy to consider like, but what if I could actually approach it in a different way?

[00:29:09] So I could achieve those amazing things without it being at my own expense or the expense of everyone who works with me. And I’m just a tyrant.

[00:29:16] Krati: Yeah. That makes so much sense. And you have to also consider like, so with Steve Jobs, one of his needs was to be the absolute best. It wasn’t just that he wanted to change the world . He wanted to be the absolute best. He was never very respectful to his competition.

[00:29:33] So you are so right and I love that you mentioned that it doesn’t have to be a trade off. You don’t have to give up on what really calls out to you You know the the level of performance you want to get out of yourself to avoid falling into the pitfalls of perfectionism There is a better way to do it.

[00:29:50] There’s a better way to achieve it all and still, you know Not be hospitalized and be okay in life. So talk to me about that. How do we do that? Like coping mechanisms? Methods and [00:30:00] strategies to achieve your potential and to feel good about it.

[00:30:04] Sam: yeah. So one of the, there’s a few main tools that I teach, uh, that we could talk about it cause they highly relate, but, um, there’s a growth goal, which is a particular way of goal setting that helps with perfectionism power planning, which is how to plan out your weeks in a way you actually follow through and really like has embedded in it because I learned about like the growth mindset.

[00:30:22] Like I’ve done so much study on perfectionism, mindset, productivity, business, like I love. the intersection of all of that. But what was missing for me is a practical tool that I could use day to day that actually integrated all of it. So I can go into that more, but also clean rest, which is guilt free rest. So we could talk about that as well, um, because that’s such a big one. And perfectionists, if they’re listening, they’re probably just like mentally switched off hearing me say that, but it is a very powerful productivity tool.

[00:30:54] And so I love, I had to frame it that way for my brain of like rest is a productivity tool to even get myself [00:31:00] remotely on board. but increasing how much guilt free rest, which doesn’t mean I always feel like restored and relaxed. And I have three kids under three. So I like my clean rest time. Um, isn’t always like relaxing, but having time to mentally switch off is so, so, so, so, so important and so helpful when it comes to actually creating a growth mindset in practice, where you really actually, willing to show up and do the courageous things and be resilient.

[00:31:31] When we are trying to work all day, every day and squeeze every last minute out of the day or feeling guilty when we’re not working or doing something productive, our poor tired brain is absolutely exhausted and can’t have great ideas. Definitely. It’s so much harder to find courage. Things take longer.

[00:31:49] there’s just so many downsides to not having the rest. It’s so uncomfortable, but we can go into that a bit more if you think it’d be helpful. Cause it’s, it’s a big thing for perfectionists to work [00:32:00] on.

[00:32:00] Krati: Yes, please. Let’s go deeper into that because output tied brain. I would like to know more about what do you mean by that?

[00:32:05] Sam: Yeah. So clean rest. or guilt free rest, basically like time. If we think about like most perfectionists, uh, I’m sure who are listening to either, like in a job, they’re working for themselves in their business. Like they, they like being productive, perfectionists, like feel bad if they’re not productive, because it feels like if I’m not being productive, then I’m not being successful.

[00:32:27] If I’m not being successful, I’m not loved. So even like for a lot of perfectionists who get frozen and stuck, they still feel guilty for not taking action. And they’re still exhausted at the end of the week, even if they just. procrastinated. But when it comes to clean rest to guilt free rest to mentally switching off and power planning is like a really helpful way to practically implement this.

[00:32:49] But having time, like basically thinking about your brain, having time where it knows it’s safe, where it knows it’s not at risk. So [00:33:00] when you’re like the way that I like to think about it, especially because I work with people who are doing things they really care about, And they’re doing it where they have to actually keep themselves accountable.

[00:33:10] So they’re like a freelancer, a consultant, maybe they’re a creative, they have a business, they have to keep themselves accountable and they need to do courageous and tedious things. And so there’s like mind management and time management that comes into that. Uh, but when you are telling your brain, you should be working all of the time.

[00:33:29] And when you’re feeling, if you do have time off and maybe there’s a family commitment, or maybe you’re just exhausted. So many perfectionists will just work until exhaustion. Again, because that’s when they finally give themselves permission to rest or like subconsciously create burnout. Because if I’m burned out, then I’m allowed to rest.

[00:33:44] I’m allowed to take a break. If I, if I’m healthy and well and rested, then I should be working. And so I definitely used to be that person. My brain still wants to tell me work will work harder, work longer. And when I started to actually play around with this, it was when I was a [00:34:00] university student that I would just spend like the whole week procrastinating on my study and feeling guilty about it and like doing whatever else but in the back of my mind the whole time I’m feeling guilty about it.

[00:34:13] And then I’d be like, Oh, now I have to study on the weekend. So I can’t do these other things that I want to be doing. And if I had a family commitment or something like seeing a friend, I’d be all had to do meal prep, even though it was an hour. I was like, Oh, I should be studying right now. And I also have my blogs.

[00:34:28] I was like, Oh, I should at least be doing something. And what I found was like, I was always kind of like half working and half not working. And my brain was so tired. So what I started doing, this was in 2014. I was like, what if I wasn’t allowed to study on the weekend? And I went to the beach. I live about an hour away from quite a few beautiful beaches.

[00:34:48] I’m in Australia. So I was like, what if I actually wasn’t allowed to work, even if I hadn’t gotten the things done during the week, I’m just like saying the weekend is off limits. And even if [00:35:00] I’m so bored and I have nothing to do and I’m twiddling my thumbs, I’m not allowed to do any study. And what I found shocked me that, and this is something that I really learned as well from Tim Ferriss in the four hour work week.

[00:35:13] And so many ways that he like helped get me on board with this concept, not the exact way I teach it, but just this idea of work for work sake. I was like, I’m doing a lot of like work for work sake. So anyway, I was like, I’m not going to do any study on the weekends at all. And what I found is I had so much more motivation to do it during the week.

[00:35:35] Because it wasn’t like, Oh, I’ll do it tonight. I’ll do it tomorrow morning. I’ll do it tomorrow night. I’ll do it the next morning. I’ll do it the next night. Like, it’s so easy to push things off. And also I then was like, okay, well I only have like this amount of time. So I’m actually going to figure out what I need to do with that time.

[00:35:50] Cause when I thought I had 24 seven, I was like, Oh, I can do all the things I should be reading this. And when I was like, I actually have like, you know, a handful of hours. [00:36:00] Okay. Then I’ll actually just do this assignment. I’ll do this thing. So it actually really directed my focus in a way that I didn’t have when 24 seven was available.

[00:36:09] And I found because I was having the weekends off that I was, it was so much easier to have clarity, to be clear in my brain and to have those answers come because my brain was rested and it wasn’t tired. And I love to think about this in terms of like, If you’re doing a workout and most people are familiar with burpees, are you familiar with burpees?

[00:36:29] Like you kind of like jump in the air and then you go out. It’s like, it uses your whole body. It’s pretty tiring. And so if you think about like the equivalent of what we’re doing when we’re not having rest or like we kind of rest only when exhausted or everything is done and everything’s never done is that it’s like, if you had a personal trainer and they’re like, Okay, do it.

[00:36:48] Maybe you’ve even said like, okay, do a hundred burpees. You’re like, okay, I’ll have to like really pace myself. That’s quite a big number. And then you’ve done it like, okay, well you did them really well. So how about we do another a hundred? Okay. Yeah. How about we do another a hundred? Okay. Now how about we do [00:37:00] another a hundred?

[00:37:00] Oh, you want to have a break? No, no, you should be doing burpees right now. Like do an, eventually you would be like, I actually can’t. And you’d be, what would really is so interesting to notice is that at some point when you realize no break is coming. You definitely aren’t giving a full effort. It’s like, okay, I’ll slowly jump up.

[00:37:17] I’ll put my feet out and I’ll jump up. And like, because you know, there’s no break coming. I don’t know when this tyrant is going to stop telling me to do burpees. So I must, maybe I’ll go to the toilet and see if I can like, you know, get a break that way. So what we do when we’re doing that to ourselves is we procrastinate because we’re trying to get a break. Because we’re trying to rest. We’re like, okay, well, at least if I’m procrastinating or overthinking, or I studied this other thing, then I don’t have to be like doing this hard thing that I need to do. So when we, instead, if you imagine you had a personal trainer, who’s like, okay, you’re going to do three sets of 10 burpees and you’re done. You’re like, okay, I can actually like fully do those. Three sets of 10 burpees and be [00:38:00] done. And then instead of them saying, will you do that really well? Do some more if they were like, okay. And you did that really well. And now you’re done the next time you go to the personal training, you’re like, I actually am willing to really give my all because I trust that when you say, like, when you told me I would be done, I am actually done that.

[00:38:17] You’re not going to say you’re having such a productive day. Maybe you could do more, maybe squeeze a bit more in. So it’s really important to just understand like your brain. It needs a break from risk and it associates risk with things that are uncomfortable, especially things that might lead to rejection to, um, people criticizing you to being successful because that might make you unrelatable and therefore unlovable to those you’re closest with.

[00:38:45] And so all of those activities. Your brain, like it takes so much more energy for your brain to do them and to want to do them well. And if you’re saying you should be doing that all day, it’s like telling yourself, like you should be doing burpees all day, every day. You just [00:39:00] aren’t going to be able to give it a full effort.

[00:39:01] It’s just physically impossible. And your brain is the same. Like it needs to be taken care of. Physically and mentally that if we are just demanding from it all the time, of course, it’s like nah, I’m not gonna do it I’m gonna procrastinate now. I’m gonna burn myself out because at least when I’m exhausted You give me a break.

[00:39:19] And so when I started to really honor, like my brain to really, like, it is such an important part of our bodies. And obviously we wouldn’t exist with like the way that we do without it. And so just really taking care of it and understanding, like, if I want to do courageous things and be able to be my own boss and manage myself, I need to actually respect how my brain works.

[00:39:40] And that regardless, I don’t prescribe certain amounts of, you need this many hours of clean breaths, but it’s really about like, your brain does need time. where it doesn’t have to be productive and it’s not being guilt tripped for not being productive, that it’s actually able to mentally switch off. And then most people find they have their best ideas when they’re in [00:40:00] that time, they have way better relationships when they’re actually not resenting everyone for taking time away from their productivity.

[00:40:07] So I, I sell clean rest really hard because it’s such a, um, a hard point for a lot of perfectionists. It feels like, no, but I once I’m ahead again, like then I could rest, but I’m behind right now. So I definitely can’t rest, but I just want to invite anyone who’s in that to realize like, maybe you’re behind because you’re not resting.

[00:40:28] Not because you aren’t resting. So

[00:40:31] Krati: Yeah, it’s

[00:40:31] a it’s so true. And I think this is one of the reasons why. People who, uh, and I have been guilty of this behavior as well, like even when I would be watching a sitcom or something, I still need to be doing something.

[00:40:46] And in those cases, I’ll pick up a video game, like on my phone, and winning the levels, even that seems satisfying to my brain, because I’m accomplishing something. Even though it’s a fricking video game, I’m not accomplishing nothing. I mean, it’s not like I’m playing for a [00:41:00] league or something. So, it’s But it just it’s that satisfaction like i’m being like i’m doing something i’m not just watching a sitcom But you know, you then have to explain to yourself like I would do this now with myself.

[00:41:12] There’s no i’m not This is not criminal behavior. It’s a sitcom sit and watch it. Enjoy yourself eat something with it Maybe and it’s fine, but it’s amazing how hard that is to Regardless of how much work you’ve put in regardless of the kudos coming your way You Still so hard to get that and you are so right.

[00:41:32] You have to like clean rest you have to like prioritize it like it’s your religion because otherwise you’re not even gonna realize the the very Dangerous path you’re going down. So this is God’s work, you know Telling people to prioritize clean work because I think that is what you are. So right That is what destroys people this inability to ever press pause and take it like it’s your right You know, knowing that you’ve done your best today, you’ve put [00:42:00] in, you know, you’ve, you’ve done the work that you were meant to do today.

[00:42:03] Now, this is your time. You’re going to rest. You’re going to do whatever it takes to really feel good in your body and, you know, be friends again with that brain of yours that’s been tripping you up all day. I think it’s so important. Um, but talk to me about goal setting as well, because you touched upon that.

[00:42:18] I think that’s another aspect of this conversation.

[00:42:22] Sam: So when it comes to goal setting, there are a few things that I would say, and specifically the growth goal that I teach relates to business. It’s a revenue goal. And there’s reasons I believe in having a revenue goal for business and not like a goal of followers or just having to be about consistency and things like that.

[00:42:37] But I can speak to a few goal setting mistakes that perfectionists tend to make. One is setting goals for every areas, like all the things. And you know, maybe you’ve seen like, if people are interpersonal development, there’s like a life wheel and you kind of like rate, you know, in each area of your life, how are you doing out of 10?

[00:42:54] And then you set one to three goals, maybe for each of those areas of life. And your [00:43:00] brain is just exhausted at the thought of it. And it’s so unclear. And like the reason we love. Having so many goals is like the optimism and the hope of like, what if I could actually do that? But what I have found after like my own experience of working with so many perfectionists is that when we have too many goals and we’re trying to really make big changes in every area of our life, we end up in this behavior, like in this self sabotaging pattern of just kind of like goal hopping in a sense of like, oh, and like using each goal as an excuse for not achieving the other one.

[00:43:36] Like I would be doing better with my business if I wasn’t so busy trying to work out consistently. And I’d be doing that better if I wasn’t so busy trying to have quality time with my husband, I’d be doing that better. Like we kind of just end up Not actually like we have so many goals because we’re not accountable when there are so many of them that we could just be like, well, you know, I tried, but then it’s like usually a few weeks later and we’ve forgotten about them.

[00:43:59] Cause our brain [00:44:00] is like, this is a joke. I’m not actually ever able to accomplish this. And that all, and I think instead of like, well, if I can’t achieve it all, I’m not going to try it all. And so what I recommend for perfectionists is to really just have a big goal in one area of your life. So I work with entrepreneurs, so for the people I work with, that is in their business.

[00:44:19] It’s not to say neglect the other areas, but the way I found works the best is that for me, for example, if I have a big goal in my business, That that really creates this accountability and commitment and like puts me on the hook in an uncomfortable way that then creates a lot of personal growth and I need to get out of my own way to achieve it.

[00:44:41] And then the benefits of that are experienced in all areas of my life by me having a focus goal in one area. So someone, for example, might have a year goal where their main goal is around their business or their career and the other areas of their life. They’re gonna like improve, but they don’t have this big goal that they’re working towards.

[00:44:59] It really [00:45:00] requires them to change as a person because when we change, like when we want to become a different kind of person and like make an identity shift, which a lot of goals do require, our brain does not want any part of that. Like it does not want to have to actually like change the way that it’s fundamentally thinking.

[00:45:17] And if we try to do that in multiple areas, it’s just untenable to the brain. Like it doesn’t actually, like it’s just too much. Like too much energy for our brain to be not thinking it’s familiar thoughts. It’s designed to conserve energy, seek pleasure, avoid pain, conserve energy. It takes a lot of mental energy to achieve new things and step into that identity and act accordingly.

[00:45:40] And so. Having a goal in just one area of your life and letting it be okay for the others to be on maintenance mode. Then allows you to actually be committed to be accountable. It’s going to be uncomfortable, but to be accountable to that goal. And then how you do one thing is how you do everything. So the lessons you learn from pursuing that goal, no matter [00:46:00] what it is, there will be benefits.

[00:46:01] Like there are so many benefits in my relationships, in my health and fitness in so many areas because of the goals that I’ve had in my business and what I’ve learned through just like being focused on that is my top priority. It’s not the most time consuming thing that I do. But it is in terms of my mental energy around my own personal growth.

[00:46:22] That is where I’m wanting to put it. And then when I had kids, that that became like, okay, I still want to grow the business, but that is such a big identity shift. Especially, I have twin boys and a daughter. When I had the twins, I went from having one child to three, like the identity crisis I went through.

[00:46:39] was so intense. It was just called everything into question in my life. Like I couldn’t just do anything the same way as I’d done it before. And I had to, re figure out how I live my day to day life, my relationships, everything, all while being very fatigued and just all of that at the same time and like then recovering physically.

[00:46:59] [00:47:00] And so that year I still had goals for my business, but my main focus Was on my family and so it’s not that it has to be like one or the other you could do both but I just find too many goals is a Big issue that perfectionists have and we typically don’t end up achieving them only trust ourselves less disappoint ourselves more Vague goals is another one a lot of perfectionists that really vague goals All of this is we’re really just scared to let ourselves down because of the way future us will treat us When we do that, we’re scared of the self judgment, the self criticism, the self blame that we are in control of that will come from us, but we don’t want to let ourselves down and disappoint ourselves.

[00:47:42] And so we have vague goals, like if someone wants to go full time in their business or get fit, um, and things like that, where it’s too vague. But I love. And just finally on goals, I’ll say I love having a goal that isn’t realistic. And that is a controversial thing because one of the top things, [00:48:00] if you Google or go to chat GPT, like what’s goal setting advice for perfectionists, it’s, you should have a realistic goal because you have unrealistic standards.

[00:48:08] But what I, because I work with people who love personal development, if you have a realistic goal, It only feels realistic because it matches your current identity and beliefs about yourself. Not because it’s like an unrealistic goal. Say if someone wants to make a hundred thousand a year from a business, it’s very realistic.

[00:48:25] There are millions of people doing that, but it feels unrealistic because of your self concept and self image. So I love just having a goal that is unrealistic. It’s not fairy tale. Like this all or nothing, but it’s just like what you believe is possible. And then you bump that goal up a bit because then you have to actually unlearn those perfectionist behaviors.

[00:48:48] And it really becomes a tool to learn how to get into a growth mindset because you can’t just do it your perfectionist way of trying a little bit harder. You have to actually learn. How to think differently. And you have to actually be willing [00:49:00] typically to achieve a bigger goal, to experience failure along the way, which perfectionists, like we really try to avoid any failure or things not working.

[00:49:10] Um, so I love having a goal. That’s just a little bit unrealistic so that you can create a new reality.

[00:49:16] Krati: Okay. I would like to talk a little bit more about that. So like the hundred and ten thousand dollars a month. Would that be unrealistic or would that be an ambitious goal with someone who’s at a zero or is that a recommended goal for someone who’s at 90, 000 because, um, I don’t know if you’ve noticed and I’m sure you have noticed because I have noticed it. I’m sure you’ve noticed that people invest their identity to these goals, especially where businesses are concerned, where your sort of external image is concerned, because your business is so much a reflection of you.

[00:49:52] They invest their personal identity in that, they invest their emotions in

[00:49:56] that.

[00:49:57] Sam: yeah,

[00:49:58] Krati: How much of that would you want [00:50:00] people to continue doing, or would you want Is it like a different way to go about that? And then when you say unrealistic, what does it mean? 0 to 100, 000 or 90 to 100, 000?

[00:50:12] Sam: Yeah, so when it comes to like a specific number So I can’t give one because it will depend on the person and where they’re at and their beliefs

[00:50:19] Krati: So why I picked those numbers? 0 to 100, 000. Why I said that? Well, Someone has nothing in their hand. Now they want a lot of things versus someone who has something in their hand and they are going to nurture that something and make it something bigger.

[00:50:34] Sam: It really comes back to, it’s about the way they’re thinking and what like taking, so the way I like to do it is that because our brains, like, especially if you’re someone that you’re smart, you’re intelligent, you believe you have a lot of potential that will be like that person who’s at zero could be like, I feel like a million dollars is realistic.

[00:50:51] And it could be, it depends on their skillset. They could actually have a skillset that they could produce. And a belief set where they could produce a million dollars in a [00:51:00] year. So it’s not to say like that’s unrealistic, like there are people who can start a business from scratch and in a year make a million dollars easily.

[00:51:07] So, um, it’s really about the way they’re thinking and what feels realistic to them, but not this fairy tale thinking of like, okay, well, I’ve never done it before. And because if we’ve never done something before. We’re typically like glamorized and romanticized and like haven’t thought about the failure, the setbacks, all the things we’re going to have to try that won’t work.

[00:51:26] So what I like to do to kind of gauge where someone’s belief really is in this specific example is to look at like, what amount of money do you bet? If you had to bet like 50, 000, what amount of money do you bet that you would make next year or this year or whatever year it is they’re setting the goal for?

[00:51:44] Because that tends to get out of like, what feels realistic versus like, okay, but what would you actually bet on? That is where your belief is at. If you would bet on that, that’s you saying like, this is what I’m certain I can create, this is what my identity currently is, that I [00:52:00] could make 50, 000 or I could make 300, 000 or I could make a million or whatever that is.

[00:52:04] Um, so it’s not necessarily different to someone who is going from like 90, typically they probably wouldn’t have the goal of 100, 000. Thousand like that have a bigger increase depends and then we might have other areas of their life. They’re focusing on in that season but it really is about like actually getting at Where is your like, what are your goals?

[00:52:24] for your life. Generally, like I have a process I walk people through. But , you know, what kind of lifestyle do you want to have, but also, and do you have lifestyle parameters? Like I work three days a week, for example. So you might have things like that. Though I would argue that doesn’t mean you have to lower the financial goal.

[00:52:39] You just have to be a bit more creative and a bit more uncomfortable, like willing to feel uncomfortable in that three work days. And if you spread it across five. But yeah, it’s not necessarily like, here’s a number. It’s really like, okay, let’s, if we’re helping you, and this is what I help people do, get out of their own way.

[00:52:55] Like we need a goal where you have to actually like practically get out [00:53:00] of your own way. You’re not just intellectually doing a thought exercise about like failure’s good. And I like rest, like. Learn that by failing and being okay with the failure and showing up and keeping on going. Learn about rest by actually getting rest and learning how to sit with that restless feeling in your brain telling you, you should be doing something productive without responding to that and validating that, but just like letting your brain have that chatter.

[00:53:26] and taking care of yourself by resting anyway. Like you learn through the doing. I love mindset work. I’m a coach and I love having that work happen practically by learning it through doing it. So yeah.

[00:53:39] Krati: I do want to say something here, um, and you tell me if you disagree with me. But I, um, I wish somebody had given me this advice when I started, like, I graduated, I finished my master’s, I was in the job market. Don’t short sell yourself. Like if you’re setting a goal, you’re aiming for a hundred thousand, it seems that seems ambitious, but your resources are telling [00:54:00] you, and by resources, I mean your intellect, your capabilities, your skillset, your ability to work hard, your ability to hustle.

[00:54:08] If it’s telling you a hundred thousand, you can do it. Maybe someone else may not be able to do it from like at this stage, but you can do it. Believe in yourself. I don’t know if that’s good advice or not, but I, would always tell people, don’t short sell yourself because you are always, always setting ceilings for yourself.

[00:54:27] If you have done that, if you’ve dismissed an ambitious goal in favor of a goal that feels comfortable, you’ve just set a ceiling for yourself. Eventually you’ll break that ceiling and you will grow because you know, that’s what life is about, but it’s going to take you longer. And for a very long period, you will be living in a place that Is not good enough for you.

[00:54:49] It’s not that the place is bad It’s just not it was never meant for you. You were meant to be in a in a higher place Comparatively

[00:54:58] Sam: I agree. I think, and that’s [00:55:00] really what I teach that. So when we, we go, what amount would you bet on? Then the bit I didn’t mention is we say, okay, now let’s turn up the dial. So let’s say you believe 50, 000 is like, you’d bet you could make 50, 000. Okay. So what about 55?

[00:55:14] What about 60? What about 65? And so we go up and up. And then where’s that point at which you’re like, Oh, like, that’s like, it’s just into feeling realistic. Like, it’s not like, okay, let’s say your goal is a million, which isn’t productive, but it’s like, okay, let’s see where your belief actually is because perfections will tend to either make it really low or often really high.

[00:55:36] Like they, because of their potential, they believe in and their intelligence, they’ll set, they think they believe in more than they actually do. So go, what would you bet you could make? And then let’s turn up the dial on that. Until it gets to the point where you’re like, oh that would actually like I couldn’t just operate my normal way and like I can’t see how I would get there.

[00:55:58] And then when you don’t have [00:56:00] a clear how you have to, like, this is the work that you then have to like, learn how to be open to that being different ways than what you currently know now, like you have to be willing to enter into uncertainty, which is so. So important, especially for entrepreneurs to be willing to be in uncertainty.

[00:56:17] But I am such a big believer in having big goals and not believing everything you think. And I would always verge towards having a bigger goal and having a smaller one simply because like I have so many big goals that took me years to achieve, but by solving for the bigger goal, I was able to achieve so much more and I had to learn how to actually navigate failure instead of having little goals.

[00:56:42] And then I’m like getting more and more of that validation of like, yeah, you’re doing a good job, which as perfectionists we love and can feel really motivating. But ultimately what I want to create with myself and for my clients is a relationship with yourself that isn’t conditional upon. Like you get good treatment from yourself when you’re succeeding and [00:57:00] poor treatment when you’re failing.

[00:57:01] So you should make sure you’re always succeeding by setting realistic goals. No. How about having a relationship with yourself where you have your own back, even if you’re failing. Even if you’re struggling, even if you don’t know what you’re doing, even if you’re rejected, that you are supporting yourself through that.

[00:57:17] That’s what it looks like to be in a growth mindset. And when you learn that skill and you can be emotionally regulated through failure. So much in life opens up because of how much we brace and avoid failure because we think we’re not going to support ourselves through it. We’re scared of the shit talking that we’ll do to ourselves if we’re failing that we will be so unkind to ourselves and cruel to ourselves that we’re trying to mainly avoid it because of what we’ll tell ourselves about ourselves in that.

[00:57:46] So by setting a goal that actually means you will have to fail at things. You will have to try things that don’t work and that are uncertain. That’s the only way to actually learn how to navigate failure is to put yourself in a situation where you will fail. [00:58:00] Not to like intellectually, this is why so many people are like, Oh, it’s better to try and fail than never try at all.

[00:58:05] But they live by the mantra. It’s better to not try than it is to fail. And I’ll only do things I’m already good at, or I’m natural at like, actually, when you are willing to do things, you’re not already good at, and you’re not natural at, you can do so much more and just have such a, a more diverse range of things that you can do and people that you can meet and all the things.

[00:58:26] So that’s what I really believe in too. Like having those big goals and questioning your brain when it tells you what you’re capable of.

[00:58:34] Krati: This is a good criteria for you checking for whether you have like a good goal or not. Is, is it going to demand more of you? Is it going to make you uncomfortable, take you into unexplored territories and then help you, you know, as you make it to the other side, come out a stronger, better person for having pursued that goal.

[00:58:54] And I love the bit about emotional regulation as you’re pursuing your goals because that is a major major [00:59:00] concern when we set an ambitious goal because then so much of our identity is tied up in that goal and it should be otherwise you wouldn’t give it your best but emotional regulation is so important and yeah so that that’s helpful.

[00:59:13] What does this look like when you’re managing other people because I would think having like a perfectionist boss would be a freaking nightmare.

[00:59:22] Sam: Yeah. Well, a lot of bosses are perfectionist bosses. Um, but so when it comes to managing people and And I guess like there’s a lot that could be said on the topic and particularly as it relates to control, uh, that perfectionist, like we feel safe when we’re in control or when we’re completely out of control.

[00:59:43] Like when we feel like we have no choice, it’s like such the irony that perfectionist would say like, I love feeling in control. Like I know what I’m doing, like I know what’s happening. but really so many perfections love feeling out of control because then it’s like, well, I had no choice, but to do this [01:00:00] thing or do that thing.

[01:00:00] And I’m not to blame and like that kind of thing. But with, um, managing others that, and at least in my own experience, as someone who has managed other people currently managing other people as well in my own business is that like, it’s really, Challenging and like, you could really only learn it through doing it.

[01:00:20] Um, but it’s really challenging to then be able to like, not be. In control as much as you are when you’re the one personally doing the work and you can kind of have those exacting standards. And if you’re willing to do the work required and willing to do it at your own expense, then you can get by with that.

[01:00:39] But when other people are involved it just really changes kind of what’s permissible and you’re forced to learn different ways or just forced to have to keep hiring different people because No one wants to work with someone who’s acting that way.

[01:00:54] Krati: What can they do to lead better when they’re having that direct confrontation, like when you’re, you’re [01:01:00] reviewing someone’s work, because then the boss usually also have to give, uh, have to have that meeting where you are actually telling the person, hey, this is what was great. This is What wasn’t great, but if you’re measuring that person to your standard chances are a lot of it wasn’t great But that’s not how it’s actually like the impact to the company is not the same When measured if we are going to like slap a quantitative measure on it It’s not the same but when it comes to you comparing that to your standards Then the numbers may be way off,

[01:01:35] how do you manage those communications? And how do you actually review the person and take it in and settle at like this is how this person has performed This is how i’m

[01:01:45] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. I think the big thing that comes up for a lot of perfectionists in those situations is, and this has definitely been my journey as well. It’s like my tendency will be towards people pleasing and wanting to be like, Oh, it’s fine. And like, [01:02:00] but then I might like, it’d be like, Oh, just take that work back on myself.

[01:02:03] We’ll just kind of Not wanting to have that direct conversation For sure There are perfectionists who want to be like this is not good enough like that kind of Steve Jobs approach and he’s an extreme example of that But I think it really is ultimately underneath it It’s really understanding like what actually matters and what doesn’t matter and understanding as well about how, when we talked about like clean rest and like how your brain works and motivation works, like when you were giving feedback to someone else, you need to take into consideration the interpretation that they will likely experience of that.

[01:02:38] And what impact that will have short term and long term and like, um, all of those different elements that it’s such a, like a nuance thing that, without like very specific his situation to this, this or that. But if someone hasn’t done work to the standard, it’s actually required. And this is like a, such a hard lesson for so many perfectionists.

[01:02:59] It’s like [01:03:00] there’s preference and then there’s what’s required. And you might have a personal preference. That doesn’t move the needle and you might say no, but I want it done in the way that I personally prefer and We’re gonna do it that way But then like there’s only like I like to think about like is this a hill I’m willing to die on like what’s the overall?

[01:03:21] Impacts of if we continue to do things this way in terms of if someone makes a different choice but it’s still within the realms of Um, it being sufficient, like perfectionists tend to not look at sufficiency. They tend to look at perfection and miss the sufficiency. They don’t celebrate and we don’t see like how many things are going right.

[01:03:40] And we tend to then not compliment the person on like all the things they’ve done a great job at. Um, but if someone isn’t actually, um, meeting the standard, then it’s just like having a direct and compassionate conversation with someone about that. But the best way to be kind is to be directed, not kind of [01:04:00] dance around it, but like, this is what’s required.

[01:04:02] This is what you’ve done. This is what needs to change. Or like this has happened multiple times. This isn’t actually sustainable for you to be working in this way. But there’s a lot of self development that’s required to not make it this big dramatic thing and to instead just approach it in this very calm way.

[01:04:20] And to also see like, most likely that person is really trying their best and they’re not trying to be dumb about it or do anyone harm. And that’s not to say to keep them, but it is, I think, just like having that context that we can be like, Oh, if it was me, I would have done it this way. Like, but they’re not you.

[01:04:38] And I have employees who’ve done. Better jobs at tasks. And I have that as perfectionists, we tend to assume we’re the best at everything. And I love finding out that I’m not, and I will gladly find out I’m not. And that only comes with being willing to let go of control and actually see that there are other people who could do things.

[01:04:56] in a better way, in a more efficient way, who can help me see the thing I [01:05:00] thought needed to be done in such a particular way actually doesn’t really matter. And there’s a better way to do it. So it could be the case as well that someone does it better and that’s like crushing to the perfectionist as well in so many ways.

[01:05:11] So it’s, uh, reconciling that too.

[01:05:15] Krati: And how are perfectionists when it comes to personal relationships

[01:05:19] Sam: It depends, but it tends to typically be if someone’s approaching relationships with that perfectionist mindset, that it would be someone who is wanting it to be natural and easy and effortless all the time to never have any conflict.

[01:05:34] But typically a lot of times, because Perfectionists will judge themselves so harshly. They are also judging their partner very harshly as well, or maybe going into people pleasing. Like, as I said, there’s different ways that it shows up. Um, but there will tend to be a lot of like, they should do it the way that I would do it.

[01:05:52] And it is similar to the work situation in some ways of like learning that other people might do things in a different way. And they [01:06:00] might even do it in a better way. And, um, yeah, there’s so much with relationships because I think ultimately at the end of the day, perfectionism is about avoiding shame and shame is about the fear of disconnection from other people.

[01:06:15] We want to be successful and smart and attractive and like all these other goals are because we want to be loved. We want to be loved by ourselves and it feels easier to love ourselves when others love us too. But primitively, we want to be in the tribe so we can survive and we’re not out on our own and we die.

[01:06:33] So there’s that real primal need for love from especially like parents, people in our family. But the people close to us, there’s such a, high need for love that, um, yeah, it can, it can show up in all sorts of ways, but typically the problems, so to speak, from perfectionism in other areas of life is all trying to solve for lovability. And like, if I just more [01:07:00] productive. I’ll be more loved if I, but I’m not too productive that I’m not making too much money. Then I’ll be loved. It’s all about how can I keep being loved and ultimately like by myself, like when we’re so desperate for that love from ourselves and we can give it to ourselves, the whole irony of it is like, we could actually just learn how to be loving towards ourselves, but it feels so risky and dangerous to do that.

[01:07:26] Krati: That makes sense. I wonder if all the people who are single don’t want to be single But have those like, you know how people put together lists of the things they need Therefore they partner to absolutely have like he has to look like this Oh, she has to have this or that. I wonder if that can tie up into this tendency to be a perfectionist and because I think a lot of people think of their partner as a reflection of themselves.

[01:07:53] Like this is because of how it’s framed in the, on the, in the online world and how it is [01:08:00] in society as well. This is, you know, how people always say you can do better. Or you can’t do better than this they they say things like that So people do look at their partner and they think this is my representation Out in the world now, even if I feel like i’m not good enough But I am dating someone who’s a like a mega star then that must mean i’m awesome I don’t know if that’s how um, this is coming from a single woman who wants to do nothing about her single status So I don’t know how right Well, I think is it depends. And this relates to like all areas of life where we have this set criteria of like, we, this is what we’re aiming for. That a lot of times it’s self sabotage. So in that relationship example, I personally know so many people who are like, You know, they must be very attractive, very smart, very successful.

[01:08:48] Sam: And ultimately, like they could never like, there’d be someone who’s so attractive and so smart. And you’d be like, what about them? They’re like, Oh no, they’re not attractive enough. And it’s like, they’re just so scared of rejection from someone else that it’s more comfortable to [01:09:00] do the rejecting and to be like, Oh, well, they just don’t meet my standard that I have.

[01:09:06] Versus like, I actually would really love to be with them, but like at least get to know them, but they might not like me. So I’ll, I’ll just pretend with myself, like it feels so real, but like, I’ll just pretend with myself that I have really high standards. And we do that with so many things, like with work that we can be like, this is how this project must be.

[01:09:24] And if I can’t do it that way, well, I’d rather not do it at all because I just have high standards. Well, like, no, you’re just scared to be seen and to not be loved. And that’s what’s under it. Like that’s the human needs and desires under it. But we just often will rather reject ourselves or reject others than be rejected.

[01:09:41] And we do that in all sorts of different ways.

[01:09:44] Krati: that helps. I have this one question. I don’t know how to frame it, but are there any typical personality markers that you’ve noticed that perfectionists have in common? Like, um, I would want to understand this [01:10:00] in the context of someone who has mental health issues like anxiety, depression, but I know that you, you know, maybe not going too deep into that, but just talking about any sort of particular mental health issues that in your experience you’ve seen, to be present in most perfectionists or any markers that you’ve seen that these people have in common, that people can look out for.

[01:10:22] Sam: I definitely don’t have expertise in the mental health space or therapy or anything like that. So I can’t really speak to it too much. I wouldn’t be able to speak to any markers or things like that. I do have a lot of clients who, are also in therapy for things like depression and anxiety. And other things like that, who are also, on medication, for example, for ADHD and neurodivergence.

[01:10:47] So there’s like that, but also I’m not an expert enough. In any of that to say, like a cross section of people who aren’t perfectionist, how, , highly that occurs as well. But from what I have read and researched, [01:11:00] particularly around anxiety and depression can be like coincide as well with that perfectionist thinking in terms of like, where we are thinking in that perfectionist way, it, Could definitely, um, yeah, be a similar line of thinking, but I’m definitely not an expert in any of that.

[01:11:19] Krati: Yeah, I have a friend who, uh, went through like one of the most laid back guys I’ve ever known. But he was when he was going through a divorce he turned into this Very tyrannical boss very like difficult to please and I remember having a phone call with him And I said what is going on just it’s fine.

[01:11:38] You’ve been working on this for so long Let it go and he snapped and this was like the first time he spoke to me in that tone He’s like this is the one place where I have full control. Can you just let me be and i’m like, okay And that was like such a huge moment of understanding for me that this person His life is going down a road that he never saw coming [01:12:00] and

[01:12:00] he’s spiraling. He’s going through like a divorce is a big fucking deal And but his work was the one place where he was the boss. He’s getting to call the shots He controlled the output and he wanted to like really control it and channel that energy from his personal life to his work life and he’d become like a Perfectionist and it was taking a toll on him on not just him on his employees as well You But he was doing that.

[01:12:25] He’s back to his usual happy, lovely self now. It was, this was a long time ago. Um, but at the time he really became that person and I think it was what he needed. So it wasn’t necessarily, I don’t think it was healthy, but it wasn’t necessarily unhealthy either. I think it’s just what had to happen.

[01:12:44] Sam: Yeah. Well, when we’re scared, we want control and we want certainty and that feels safe. And so I’d have definitely noticed for myself when I, for example, when I was pregnant with my daughter and having kids, like entering that phase where there’s so much [01:13:00] uncertainty, on so many different fronts with having kids that when also having uncertainty in my business, it was just very challenging to have high levels of uncertainty in my own personal health, because I’m pregnant, my health is changing.

[01:13:13] And then also like, there’s another little human involved. And my business is also uncertain that I found it very, like I wanted to have less uncertainty in my business when I had higher levels of uncertainty in my personal life, like my tolerance For uncertainty, if you will, is at a certain point and it’s like too many areas of life have a lot of uncertainty.

[01:13:36] This comes back to the goal setting that if you are like having things doing them in a new way creates uncertainty for your brain and therefore like, Most of us don’t feel safe in uncertainty, typically. And so it’s just like managing, okay, I’m going to have uncertainty here and a bit more certainty here, or I can do things to create certainty for myself with my brain and my mindset and the way I’m approaching [01:14:00] things, um, or on a more practical front, the way I’m doing things that I can create certainty for myself, knowing that if my life.

[01:14:07] Feels too uncertain. My brain will really like rebel against that. , and go into like this kind of controlling mode. So yeah, I don’t think it’s an uncommon pattern to have if, if things are feeling out of control to try and get control wherever we can.

[01:14:23] Krati: That makes sense. Um, One of the things that like I read a paper on, uh, Internet addiction, addiction to video games and perfectionism and it made so much sense to me like I don’t want to go too deep into that but it’s just something that I want to share and tell me if you like disagree with me or if it’s something that you’ve not noticed, you know, because you work with people who are actually in that place.

[01:14:44] I’ve seen that if you know you have perfectionist. Like those standards, and you fail to meet them over and over again, because as you said, the goals are completely outlandish perhaps and then they start procrastinating because there’s a lot of fear of [01:15:00] failure without growth.

[01:15:01] Like you said, growth mindset means you fail, but you also grow and you keep trying harder and harder and you grow through that process. But if you keep failing, The fear starts to overwhelm you and then it’s just easier to give up and a lot of those people then have that dopamine release that their body needs, that sense of false productivity that they need through video games, through binging, uh, watching like a bunch of TV shows.

[01:15:26] Um, that’s, I read a paper on that, that talked about it, that, , the stress and depression associated with perfectionistic tendencies could lead to excessive and problematic internet use as a coping mechanism. That was surprising, but I think it’s a study that needs to be highlighted for a lot of people, because while they’re trying to manage that behavior, because they don’t understand the cause of it, I think it’s, it becomes more challenging for them.

[01:15:52] Sam: Yeah, and that could be, like, it’s nuanced, there can be multiple causes, and part of it is the engineers are really good at, at hacking our [01:16:00] brains and knowing, like, how to keep us scrolling. Um, so I think it’s the average human as well who is, wanting that dopamine . Hit that comes from the internet, but what I have noticed for sure in myself and my clients as well is that like, it’s that kind of avoidant behavior that if we can’t do something perfectly, or we don’t feel good at what we’re doing, we would rather not do it at all or not engage with it.

[01:16:24] Or we need that like last minute pressure to get us into action because of the last minute we’re like, okay, well, I don’t have time to do it perfectly. So it’s okay if I don’t. So, uh, I have definitely seen, particularly for my clients, because I work with people who are very, I like very ambitious and smart people, but also they will spend a lot of time scrolling Instagram or tick tock or those different apps app of choice because, and researching and learning as well, like it tends to be productive procrastination for a lot of my clients is that they won’t just be like, I mean, sometimes they will, but they won’t always [01:17:00] be completely mindlessly consuming random things.

[01:17:03] It will typically be like for my people who are business owners or creatives, like they will be consuming like how to do marketing, how to do better sales operations, Facebook ads, like inspiring stories. Like they will be. Consuming a lot of information about it. And that’s how it typically manifests because when you’re consuming, you’re not having to create you, but you get to feel productive because, well, I’m learning something and people say, you know, you should read books and you should be learning things.

[01:17:32] And so, uh, we’re taken to an extreme as a way to avoid. Doing the things and like applying what you’re learning, then it’s not helpful. And I love, uh, like when I read books, I really aim to like spend 50 percent of the time, if it’s nonfiction, reading the book and the other 50%, like if there’s like, I highlight things as I go, like, journaling on a question that they ask themselves, or like, not just like hero journal questions, but like pondering about things.

[01:17:58] So thinking like, how could I apply this to my own [01:18:00] life? And I’ve changed my life from just actually applying books and not just being like, that was inspiring onto the next one that was inspiring onto the next one. So, um, for sure, I’ve seen, particularly with my clients, a lot of overconsumption. as an avoidant behavior because it’s so scary to do things that you feel bad at and that might not work.

[01:18:22] And others might judge and criticize you and probably will for doing that because like you’re putting things on the internet. So, um, yeah, I think that that is like, there could be other causes too, but I do see, um, that avoidant behavior for sure.

[01:18:39] Krati: Productive procrastination is my medicine of choice. When I don’t want to do something, like when I’m writing an article, and I’ve been writing it for a while, I’m just like, I don’t want to write anymore, but it has to go out, so then I’ll choose to read and research around the same topic, so that it’s still alive in my brain, and when I’ve taken that break that I need, I can

[01:18:59] go [01:19:00] back into the flow of writing and finish that article and send it out. Productive procrastination, my best friend. I definitely

[01:19:06] push that

[01:19:07] Sam: And maybe, maybe a bit of clean rest wouldn’t harm you either, instead of the productive procrastination.

[01:19:14] Krati: yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:15] Sam: because your brain is like I need a break and I do that I am having my lunch,. I’m like, I want to listen to a podcast. I’m like, what if I just didn’t?

[01:19:25] And it’s more uncomfortable for sure. Yeah. Um, but also then I’m like, well, what are my ideas on that topic versus what someone else’s, and I love learning from others and , I wouldn’t be where I am today without that, but when I actually trust myself to like, I do have wisdom on it and I can understand like, what do I know first?

[01:19:45] And then I can go out and. figure out what I don’t know from that place versus like, I wonder what this person says about it. I still definitely, like I’m not perfect whatsoever. And I still am like, Oh, what’s this thing? What’s that thing? And I will definitely do that. But I have, I, it used to be [01:20:00] such a problem that I would do all this time on productive procrastination.

[01:20:05] And the more I have set constraints for myself around how much I’m consuming and even limiting the number of podcasts. I love podcasts, limiting the number of podcasts I listened to, to like one or two podcasts. And really constraining down has been so beneficial. And on Instagram, for example, I don’t have the app on my personal phone.

[01:20:25] I’ve pretty much muted everyone. Like I just, I’m not on Tik TOK because I know my brain like would love to be doing that. And so I just, Also have the identity that I don’t endlessly scroll. Um, that’s a big thing, but also, I just know that my brains, like every human brain pretty much is like, yes, please.

[01:20:44] I would love to just like, have all this basically like candy for the brain. So yeah.

[01:20:50] Krati: So true. , before we stopped recording, I would love for us to leave the listeners on a positive note. Just share with us what perfectionism now looks for you having [01:21:00] done all of this work and having helped other people do this work just so you know, give them an incentive to really internalize the advice you shared up to this point.

[01:21:08] And yeah, get cracking on

[01:21:11] Sam: Yeah, for sure. Great question. So I think the best way to answer that is when I really zoom out. So I started my business and as I said, perfectionism, I had in other areas too, but business was like the big thing for me. And so when I started my business in 2013, like I was just trying to squeeze in working on, but I was too scared to tell anyone in my life about it.

[01:21:31] And I didn’t for like a year, I was just constantly stopping and starting. It was such. such a struggle. It was so hard to get myself going. And I just felt like it was such a joke. Like what was I even doing? And then I’ve done this work and slowly but surely over the last decade. and I figured out tools, which I could help people with as well.

[01:21:54] So, the journey doesn’t have to be as long and painful as mine has been. But now, for [01:22:00] example, I work three days a week. I’m a mom of three little ones, so I get to, like, I’m not working in accounting anymore, which I was, um, I get to choose when I work, and what I work on, and who I work with, and I get to do something that I really love, and, , I still overthink.

[01:22:17] I still procrastinate. Like that still happens. It’s not like, okay. And now like, I, you know, I’m in this magical place, but I will say that like, I’ve been able to make 2 million at this point from my business. I have so many podcasts, downloads it, all these different things. But ultimately like my relationship with myself is what is completely different.

[01:22:38] And those things are like a, a manifestation of that and a benefit of that, like the side effect of, of me actually having not like self love and self compassion have never resonated with me as terms, but self trust is like, I trust that if I say I’m going to do something, I’m going to do it. not perfectly And I might need to change my plans and [01:23:00] adjust it, but I’m not going to be doing things at my own expense.

[01:23:03] I haven’t burned out now in about five or six years. , and I’m just really able to, when I’m failing at things, and I do because I’m a business owner, That I have such a different relationship with myself, mainly like I let myself feel the feelings and process any shape that I have, , and be with myself and support myself through that and be so much more emotionally regulated.

[01:23:28] So I can actually be responsive. I don’t shut down and go into that shame spiral. I’m able as well now to Ask for and receive support in a way that I wasn’t like perfectionists tend to have a really hard time receiving support. Although like there’s so much codependency, but, , for me, I want it to be so self sufficient and so independent.

[01:23:47] And of course that has served me in so many ways, but being able to receive support from others and show others, like the things that I’m not doing well at, and I want help with has just been, like, it just has made. [01:24:00] Having a business, like I work less, it’s way more successful and I enjoy it so much more than when I was working like all day, every way.

[01:24:08] So, so, so stressed. So in my own way, and it really has been like the tools of the growth goal and power planning and clean breasts that have done the practical work to bring together. All of these concepts that means that I can actually trust myself. I can support myself and I’m definitely not perfect at it.

[01:24:27] And I definitely still have my struggles with it, but it is day and night from when I started in 2013, like day and night. It’s shocking when I zoom out and think about like how different it is. I didn’t want to tell anyone I even had a business whatsoever. So. Yeah, it like getting into that growth mindset.

[01:24:47] You don’t have to be a hundred percent there at all, but every little increment we can make towards being more growth minded and less personally attached has, has allowed me to do higher [01:25:00] quality work, help more people. And actually enjoy it and not have everything feel like if I get a refund request, it’s a personal attack or like, Oh, okay.

[01:25:09] Like it’s, this is business. It’s not like they don’t want me anymore. They didn’t think I was good enough. It’s like, no, it’s, that’s not it. Um, so yeah, it’s just, it feels so much healthier. And I’m just so proud of myself for the courage that it took because it took so much courage, which meant taking action while scared.

[01:25:29] People think like courage, that’s nice. That’ll feel good. It feels like shit because it means you were doing things while you’re scared to do them, but I’m so proud of the courage that I had to take the leaps that I took at various points and to Believe ultimately to believe in something there was no proof Whatever happened that I was willing to leave the corporate world.

[01:25:51] Um, when I only made 3, 000 and go back to a part time job that I had and just like leave that all my degrees and everything [01:26:00] behind and be like, there’s literally no proof that I could ever sustain myself financially from having my own business. And yet I’m willing to try. Like that willingness to try, even when I was so scared, uh, and kept getting frozen that I, I’m just so proud of that.

[01:26:16] So I think for most people, like, and they say the deathbed test of like, can you get to the light, like the end of your life, what would you regret? And for most people, it’s like, I wish I had tried and I’m proud of myself for trying, there’s still other things I would have tried to, but, um, that’s what opens up when we let go of the perfectionist thinking.

[01:26:36] That courage is what we’re able to find so much more of.