How to Destroy Loneliness and Build Rich Friendships That Last with Zoe Asher

Krati: Why focus on loneliness and why is loneliness so common now?

Zoe: Yeah. So to answer the first part, why me and why am I focusing on it? It actually all started when I was 20 years old. I was in college and I had an explosive best friend breakup. Like there’s no other way to put it. This was my singular friend. And now I was. In the worst place I could ever imagine finding myself and that was suddenly having no friends and I fell into a deep spell of depression.

I had no hope. I didn’t want to leave my apartment at all. And, um, it was like that for months. Because I was so frustrated that here I was I invested all this time, all this emotion, all of these experiences into one person only to be dropped and it’s heartbreaking, right? Because you risk and then you’re left with sometimes nothing to show for it.

So after I went through this kind of bout of depression for a couple months, it was nearing the new year. And I just looked myself in the mirror one day and I said, I don’t want to be lonely anymore. And so I knew that if I made that decision, I needed to actually take action and make it a reality. Right?

So I decided to create a new year’s resolution to eat a meal with someone different on my university campus every single day and get to know their story. And my hope was that I would have this conversation with somebody and maybe I’d eventually make some more friends, but maybe I would leave that conversation actually feeling hope again.

Because if I was able to take the focus off myself, and, you know, the doom and gloom I was feeling, and focus on somebody else, maybe that can pull me out of this. Right? And so that’s how the process started for me. I was so awkward, and so uncomfortable, that I actually wrote cue cards. And put them in my pocket in case I didn’t know what to ask people.

Like I was so weird, but you know, the more that I did it, the more comfortable I got taking people through this journey of getting to know them and then getting to know me. And it became the most transformative experience of my life. So much so that by the time I graduated university, I had gotten over 250 meals with.

Strangers who then became friends on campus. And it made me realize that we’re so much closer to destroying our loneliness than we think we are. There’s just a couple decisions we have to make, and we have to make faithfully and consistently. And I think that loneliness is so prevalent today because, quite honestly, We’re comfortable.

We have every app under the sun. We can get any food delivered. We don’t need to leave our house anymore to put it simply right to get our what we believe is our needs being met But I think it’s a dangerous moment that we’re in not only with the the comfort crisis that we’re in but also as we’re headed into the future with AI where we’re gonna get to a point where robots who don’t have souls and don’t have feelings Can be supplemented and replaced from friends like they could become our friends instead and so we have to really set up guardrails in our life and decide, one-

we don’t want to be lonely anymore but also decide what’s actually going to be most important for us.

Krati: Yeah, I love that story. I love that you, you know, took that massive step of having a conversation with someone new every single day. That’s a lot, especially someone like me. I actually, um, this year I made my own calendar. Like I went to a printer shop. I printed out. Uh, my own calendar and every month is focused on one value.

Like let’s, January is all about discipline because I’m trying to establish a new schedule. So March is actually for me about, like you said, getting out of the comfort zone because you are absolutely right. I don’t socialize at all and I’m starting to wonder if that’s. Like I’m so happy in my own company But I also want and I know there’s so many other people like me out there, especially people who are creative They love to stay in their own little bubble, but i’m starting to wonder if that’s dangerous.

Like there could be, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but maybe 20 years down the line, I might have to pay a price for having limited my circle so much. I, I live in India. I have maybe like three Indian friends and none of them live in the same state as myself. So all of my friends are spread around the world.

Um, so I, I, you’re right. It’s, I don’t feel lonely, but I wonder if maybe 20 years down the line I might, and then it would be more difficult for me to fix that. Not that, you know, age shouldn’t be a barrier to friendship, but you, you really don’t know what you’re going to be like at that time. And

Zoe: totally.

Krati: yeah, so you’re absolutely right.

Yeah.

Zoe: let’s talk about that though, right, for a second. Because what, what I’m hearing you say is that you like solitude, right? And most people would be surprised to learn I’m an introvert. Okay? I can come across super expressive and very extroverted, but the truth is girl, I love my alone time too.

Okay? But, here’s the thing. Fellow introverts, that’s not an excuse. Okay, we, we restore ourselves and we get energy from being alone, but we also need people and need relationships and friendships in our life because we, I believe that we were created for community. You know, going back to our ancestors and tribes, if you were physically alone, you would literally die.

Right? And the principle truly is the same today. In fact, there was this revolutionary Harvard study, which was an 85 year study. And the goal of the study was to figure out what is the key contributor to longevity and happiness. Okay. And at the end of that study, they found That the number one predictor of how long and happy of a life you would live is not how much you worked out and exercised. It was not how healthy you ate. It was not how much money you had. It was the quality and depth of the friendships and relationships in your life. Which means that no matter what age, stage, phase, extrovert, introvert, ambivert, no excuses. We all need people and we all need quality relationships at that.

Krati: That is so true. That study has been quoted a lot on this podcast. It’s an important one. It really, you know, focuses on something that a lot of us are now at this point, ignoring, like you said, you know, we’ve become becoming too comfortable. Like, I would say that, you know, I’ve met people who have very large social circles, but the quality of their friendships is not.

Great. Something we’re going to discuss today in our conversation. You know, I said, like, I don’t have friends in the same state as myself, but my friends, even though they’re spread around the world, when we talk, it’s very, it’s very deep, it’s very profound. We don’t do shallow conversations. So I think that that is also one of the reasons why I’m so happy staying in my office space, staying in my home, not going out so much because I have that emotional bond with.

Friends that runs really, really deep, you know,

Zoe: Yes. always like create more intellectual bonds with people. You can get out of your home. You can seek out, if not intellectual, you can seek out someone to just hang with and have a little, like there’s nothing wrong with having shallow conversations, even, you know, it could just.

Krati: About sharing some laughter.

Zoe: That’s right. And you know, people hate on small talk, right? Because it’s uncomfortable. It’s like, well, this was a waste of time, you know, but there’s actually enough research out there to show that small talk is integral because when you’re having a. Small talk or a shallow conversation.

Your body is actually testing the water and, um, checking to see, is this person actually safe enough to go one layer deeper? So we actually cannot avoid or pass over small talk, but we need to go through it to get to the next level. So I think you bring up an important part with that. Small talk is definitely relevant and needed too.

Krati: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. Um, you know, loneliness, we mentioned that. And right away everybody’s body sort of, uh, you either flinch or you clench or . The word brings up a lot of discomfort and nobody actually wants to get up and say that I am lonely. Like there’s some stigma attached to it or something.

It says something about you. I don’t know, but there are a lot of ideas people have about loneliness. There’s a lot of misconceptions as well. So talk to me about that because I think. You have got to get away from those before you can actually consciously do the work.

Zoe: Yes, absolutely. So there’s a stigma about loneliness because I think we all revert back to our childhood self almost, and imagine a time where we weren’t picked

for a sport, for a team. Maybe we were bullied and we remember that terrifying feeling. And it almost just makes our mind and our body cower back of, I don’t want to feel like that anymore.

But at the same time, if you admit that you’re that it’s almost as if we treat it, like we are fully exposing ourselves and that’s terrifying, right? Nobody wants to feel naked. The truth is that 60 percent of adults. actually self identify as lonely in anonymous studies consistently. So it’s funny that it even has to be anonymous, but when you think about it like that, 60 percent is the majority.

So here we all think we are lonely alone, but we are actually all, and almost all of us, feeling lonely together. So I think that’s an important piece to bring into this dialogue, because lonely isn’t something to be afraid of. It’s just an indicator. That something needs addressed, right? It’s that blinking, flashing signal that your body’s trying to say, Hey, let’s do something about this.

Krati: Yeah. . I think it’s also those like, you know, you just assume that if somebody’s socially popular, they are just a better person, like they’re more fun. They are, like, there’s a reason why nobody wants to be around you and that’s why you’re lonely. But I don’t think that’s That’s in fact, the reason like a lot of people are scared of getting hurt and that’s why they maintain emotional distance.

Um, so yeah, something people often miss out on. Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah, I, I totally agree. And everyone’s afraid of getting hurt, right?

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: And we’ve gotten to a point, this goes back to the beginning of what we were saying, is that We’re so afraid of taking a risk. Really, any risk that you take is worth taking if you get what you were hoping for, right? Now, there’s a 50 50 chance that that’s gonna happen, but what I truly believe is that you’re worth that risk.

Right? Because yes, you can get burned. You can get hurt. You can get betrayed. You could fall flat on your face, or you could find and make the connection and friendship that you’ve always been wanting and hoping for your entire life. And so, we all think about big moments in our life that happen to us almost every single time.

Those moments are on the other side of us taking a risk, right? And this is no different.

Krati: Yeah. Beautifully put. Um, do you think that today’s society is supportive of this kind of work? Like if somebody decides listening to you and the kind of work you do and you are very inspiring. So people listen to you and they may want to get out there. Take, take a shot at building deeper relationships.

But do you think society today, the way it’s set up, it supports that? Do you think the culture supports that? Or do you think it’s sort of, it’s making relationships harder to build?

Zoe: Yeah, I mean, you bring up a great point, right? Is. You are fighting against a machine of sorts, and obviously I’m saying that tongue in cheek, but we’re collectively experiencing the same thing, yet there’s a stigma that you have to overcome, yet you have to risk, and then once you decide to do that, I don’t want to be lonely anymore, you choose to take the risk, then it’s like, okay, where do I start?

I’m at the gym and everyone has AirPods in. I can’t talk to anybody. They don’t want to have a conversation. Everyone has their head down in their phone, right? So there’s all of these hurdles you have to overcome. But here’s what I truly believe. Everybody wants to feel seen and everybody wants to feel like they matter.

Let me actually share a really interesting study that was done. This was actually by the, the Gottman Institute, and they basically wanted to do a study. To talk about rejection and how they set it up was they asked someone, if you were to strike up a conversation in line somewhere, waiting for something, what’s the probability that you think someone would talk back or ignore you?

And the participants said that they believe 97 percent of the time. If they attempted to start a conversation, they’d be ignored. Well, what’s crazy is that when they actually did it, it was the exact opposite. 97 percent of the time, a stranger decided to get into a conversation because it all came down to making someone feel like they matter.

And we have these limiting beliefs about rejection, assumptions. I mean, they’re swirling in our head, right? And we have to kill those lies. That we’re telling ourselves to even get to that point. And yes, you may have conversations with 50 people before you find somebody that you have a compatible, you know, lifestyle, friendship with, hopes, dreams, goals, and you found it, right?

So it doesn’t matter how many times it took, how much time was invested. It paid off. You’ve, you’ve found that friend and you, you destroyed your loneliness. And the goal is that if we’re all so lonely, this is much bigger than me. This is not a, a one person job. My goal is to help build an army of people that learn to destroy their loneliness and then teach others to do the same so that we actually can tackle this thing and that we all aren’t self destructing by ourselves.

Krati: Yeah, that is so true. I never realized that I have similar beliefs. Like, whenever I travel with my parents, um, my father is very He loves talking to strangers. He just loves it. So we would be standing in the queue at the airport Everybody is a little harassed at the airport, right? So I would turn around and he’s talking to someone and I would my instant thought would be Don’t bug these people.

You don’t know what they’re going through right now. They may have And I always do that. I would always be like I would call out to my dad. I’m like, Papa, come over here. Come over here. Don’t, don’t bug people. And he would just be like, I’m just talking to them. What is your deal? And it’s, it’s so true. I always act like we’re just like, you know, it’s, it’s such a, you know, you’re harassing someone.

Like if you’re talking to them, you are creating a problem for them. And that’s not true. You know, you, you bring up a great point. I wonder how many people listening to this would agree would share in that sentiment because I think yeah, you’re you’re so right that study I’m gonna share the link to that study because I think that’s something we should we should read more about Yeah You know, um recently like i’ve always my brother is my polar opposite.

He’s very gregarious very He’s an extrovert has a massive social circle And I would always think to myself that anybody who has that large a social circle probably has very shallow friendships. There’s no way you can have very deep friendships. With all of these people and and I still think that to some extent like there’s not enough hours in your day He’s a very busy guy.

There’s not enough hours in your day for you to maintain deep bonds with all of these people But I do see anytime something goes wrong, like someone just lost their spouse in that in his group. He Travel from Abu Dhabi to India very next day. He showed up to be there for his friend He goes to all the weddings.

He goes to like all anytime somebody has a kid. He shows up He’s always supporting his friends. His wife is the same. His friends are the same And I’m like, yeah, maybe they don’t have very deep conversations. Maybe they don’t know everything about each other, but they show up, you know. And isn’t that everything at the end of the day?

Zoe: That is everything, right? That’s that concept, and we call it a ride or die friend, who they’re there with you, thick, thin, good, bad, ugly. Totally. Totally. And. You know, what’s also important about what you’re saying is I’m getting the sense that your brother isn’t just a person that shows up when somebody needs them, but he also shows up when somebody wants to celebrate something amazing.

And that’s actually the marks of an incredible friend. If you feel safe enough. To pick up the phone and say, Hey, I just got to tell you the good news. I landed a job interview for this job I’ve been wanting without feeling like, Oh, they’re going to judge me. Oh, they’re going to think I’m narcissistic.

You know, that’s a friend who you, they can actually integrate into every part of your life and be there regardless of the circumstances across the board and accept you and all of your flaws

Krati: yeah,

Zoe: Spite of it. Yes.

Krati: yeah. This is amazing. 20 minutes into this conversation and I’ve realized a bunch of things about myself. I have so many misconceptions. I have such a hard time asking for and for all my confidence. I am someone who believes that I don’t need people I’ll i’ve got this by myself I have such a hard time asking anyone to make space for me in their schedule to make space for me In their life like drop everything come party with me or drop everything.

I need you I have I doubt I don’t know how many times i’ve said that I don’t think very like i’m 33. I I doubt i’ve said that more than Two to three times, I guess. Um, yeah, I’m realizing a lot of things with this conversation.

Zoe: So let me ask you a question. If, if I wanted to hang out with you when I came to your city, what would you do?

Krati: I would deal with my schedule. I would make room for you. I would make sure that I’m there. I will talk to you. Like, I’ve done this a few times before because I have friends from different countries. So they would come down. I would plan the itinerary. And I’m a planner. Like, I would research everything. I would make sure it aligns with their personality.

So yeah, I would make time. I would make room for you. I would be there. Totally. 100%.

Zoe: So isn’t that interesting? Because I wasn’t nervous about asking you if we could hang out if I came to your city yet. We tell ourselves that we’re the bother and we’re the burden.

Nobody told us this.

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: And the chances of rejection are actually so low, it’s probably more of a thing in most circumstances if someone’s like, Sorry, can’t.

We, we internalize it to, Oh my god, they hate me. I’m a loser. See, nobody wants to talk to me. I’m so awkward. You know, we make, we make up all these stories.

And And they’re lies. And those are assumptions. And the worst thing we can do is create a story without actually giving someone, the person who we’re writing it about, a chance to tell us if that’s true or not.

So, here’s what I did, because I used to be the same way. In fact, this happened a couple months ago. Um, so I’m still working on it, all that to say. But, I have a best friend who has three kids and one of them is an infant. There was

An artist, a musical artist that came to town and it was my favorite artist and she loves this artist too.

So I was like, Oh my gosh, I should ask her if we can go to this concert. And before I even asked her, I said, Mm, no, she probably, she probably will be too busy. I shouldn’t ask her. The day the concert came and she texts me in all caps saying, Why didn’t you tell me about this concert? So we could have gone.

Krati: hmm. Yeah.

Zoe: And I said, Oh my God, you know why? Because I told myself a story that you wouldn’t want to, or you’d be too busy. And I totally dropped the ball because I didn’t even let you answer for yourself. I selfishly answered for you because I was so afraid of hearing no from my best friend, you know? And so it’s crazy because if we had the courage to actually test those assumptions with, Hey, I’m going to be honest.

You’ve ignored my calls for the past four days. The story I’m telling myself is that you’re really annoyed with me. Is that true?

Krati: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Zoe: Now that’s how you build a deep relationship by being willing to risk it and hear what their actual thoughts are.

Krati: Yeah, that’s amazing. That is amazing. See, you asked me what I need in my friendships. This is why I need my friends to tell me, to be very blunt, to tell me when I’m being too much, when I am, you know, uh, when I’ve said something that has hurt them. Just don’t make me play mental Jenga. I have a heart like I’m a lazy person I don’t want to sit here and figure out whether you’re actually like you’re laughing and smiling with me Are you actually happy to be here?

Just tell me when I’m being too much Just tell me when you don’t have time Tell me when I’ve said something to hurt your feelings and I’ve been lucky enough to Now, all of my friends are like that. They’re blunt to a crazy degree with me, at least. They may not be the same way with other people, but they’re like that with me.

Because the moment I find out that you are actually holding things back, or you’re, you know, muting sides to yourself when we hang out, it’s gonna sort of make it harder for me to trust you. And then I have to constantly look out. Am I being too much? Is this person uncomfortable? Because,

Zoe: 100%.

Yes. totally because then you become paranoid, right? Because we’re picking up things are not the same. How they’re communicating is different with their body language, their tone. Something’s off, but I can’t figure out what it is.

And we all want friends that are really honest with us. Right. And a big part of making friendships as an adult. Is one that we overlook. We talked about the mindset switches that need to happen.

Right. But I, I think often we go into our friendships kind of willy nilly, just super line, like, Oh, you’re cool. Oh, you like the same food. Oh, we play the same sports, but what if we approached it very differently and actually came in with. A goal, something such as figuring out what do I want in a friendship, especially character traits, right?

So you’re telling me communication and honesty is a character trait that you desperately want. Well, that’s part one. Who is actually looking at the list of character traits that we want and asking ourselves, am I that type of friend? Because if we are not that type of friend, And we are expecting others to be what we aren’t even doing ourselves, that’s ridiculous.

And it’s not going to go anywhere because those types of friends are looking for you too. So we have to be willing to step into being the friend we want first before we find the friend that we want.

Krati: You are right. You know, recently, I was on the phone with my friend. I went through something with, , someone else, something happened. I broke down on the phone, which

happens never with me. Uh, it’s uh, it’s one of my best friends. I broke down on the phone. I cried and she Like, she was trying to be there for me, but at the same time she was reeling in disbelief. She’s like, this is the first time I’ve heard you cry throughout our friendship. You know, she’s, she’s like, I’ve cried with you before, but you’ve never cried with me.

And this is like, she was, she was, she was there for me. And we talked it through everything that was going on with me. And she was like, I feel, for the first time, I feel like I was your friend today, like I was there for you instead of it always, you know, playing the other way around and I was like, yeah, this is, she’s like, you know, sometimes friends show up for you, even when they don’t have the time, even when they they’re busy.

are not fully present because they have their own shit going on but isn’t that what friendship is about like you don’t always need your friends to tell you that no i’m not fully available it’s okay if they’re not available and still showing up because that’s what you do for your friends and i was like that’s one of the reasons why i came up with like march is gonna be me Being more social, getting out there, you know, re opening that dating app that has been collecting dust in some corner of my phone. I’m like, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this.

Zoe: I love so much about what you said, because You gave someone the gift of your vulnerability and I say gift because vulnerability is what takes Friendships and relationships to the next level because people can’t be there for you If they don’t know what you’re going through. And we can’t expect people to read our minds Right?

And so, you gave someone the gift of your vulnerability, and then they knew exactly what to do with it. Oh, I get to sit with my friend, Kati, right now, and hold space for this, and sit with her in the emotion. And for her to say in response, I feel like I got to be a friend today, that’s proof! That was, that was a gift.

She, she was actually blessed because you were vulnerable with her. So, we don’t need to be afraid of showing emotion and being vulnerable with people. Because, think about it on the flip side. If you didn’t know someone was going through something and all of a sudden they open up. The first thing you’re thinking is, Wow, I’m so grateful.

I now know what’s really going on.

Krati: Yeah. Yeah. Something else that I, you know, realized, and I keep sharing my own example because it’s the only, you know, true example that I can share here. But I realized that I always clean up my vulnerability. Being vulnerable is messy business, but I would always process things on my own. Cause you know, I’m, I am a solitary.

I grew up with no friends, so I know how to do that. I would clean it up and then I would share it pieces with you that I think you will be comfortable handling. And then I would dump out the rest. And I, I now realize that that is. This, uh, disservice to your friend who is sharing all of themselves with you.

Um, it’s something to work on for me, but, you know, I mean, it doesn’t have to be perfect. Uh, I, I understand that and it, but it is something to work on and it is, I think, rewarding work. And I realized that even more keenly as you and I are talking about the subject right now, I hope we’re doing the same for our listeners, because this is This is something that needs work, but I think it is incredibly rewarding work.

Zoe: Absolutely. I mean, how I describe what I went through in college is, it was actually the most life giving experiences I’ve ever had. And I walked away On cloud nine, and almost, it almost became an addiction because I was like, I felt such purpose, right? And, and at the end of everything, when we look back on our life, we want to feel like we lived with a purpose and on purpose.

And so I agree. It is such beautiful work. If we have the courage to pursue it.

Krati: definitely courage, one of the more important ingredients. Uh, but I think again, it’s something that’s like a huge block and if you can cultivate that courage, it’s going to give you results that are going to snowball because it’s not just going to be limited to your personal life. It’s going to spill over.

So that’s something amazing but talk to me about what a rich relationship is like I think we’re beginning to get that picture as we’ve been talking We’ve pointed out a lot of things you and I , you know from our own experiences but tell me more about that because I think again In this world of hyper connectivity.

We also end up with some very with shallow connections but you know as we said like there is a value even to that, but if we are talking about supportive, uh bonds in our life It’s a bonds that you know, like you talked about that study where it’s about the quality of your relationship That makes you happy and mentally or psychologically healthy at the end of the day.

What would that be like?

Zoe: Yeah. So, so going to what a rich friendship and relationship is, I think when you say that somebody’s rich, we have a picture of what that looks like, right? We mean they have an abundance or an overflow of financial wealth. And their needs are not only met, they’re more than good, right? And in the same way, I consider a rich relationship and friendship just like that.

Where you actually are so filled up that not only are your needs met, but you just get to live life freely. And enjoy every single second of it. And, obviously I say enjoy every single second of it, tongue in cheek, because we all go through trials and tribulations, but knowing that there is someone or multiple people who is in your corner, no matter what, who fully wants to know you, fully wants to see you, fully wants to hear you, And after they do all that still chooses to fully love you. That’s the epitome of what I believe we are all searching for and longing for. And if we’re able to actually take that and going back to what we talked about earlier, become that and just hyper fixate on becoming a person who. Wants to truly know others, not just know what they like, what they don’t like, but know what their passions are, their desires, their biggest fears, what, what brings them to tears.

Krati: Right.

Zoe: That’s a different ballgame altogether.

Krati: That would be incredible if we can have that. I wonder how different the world would be if all the people, especially the people who believe themselves to be the movers and shakers, you know, people who do activist work, people who are out on the streets, politicians.

Oh my God. If these people had, or if they do already have rich relationships, I don’t know, but I would want people like that to, because they, they’re so, their work is so emotional. Politicians are like a different breed of, Like humans, I don’t understand these people.

Zoe: No, I, I totally agree. And celebrities, too, right?

Krati: yes.

Zoe: They’re, they’re adored by millions but known by no one.

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: Because they have to live with a facade. And I think that often today, so many of us feel that same tension on a much smaller scale. With Social media, you

know, whatever social media of choice you use every day, we have to make decisions of how do I want to show up?

What do I want to hide from people? What do I want people to know about me? And we’re curating these alternate realities, which is making our in person connections so much weirder. Because we’re trying to decipher, is this the person that I know to be true online, which is the authentic version of them, and is that authentic version of them safe period.

You know, so, so we have to go through all these mental gymnastics to even get to that point. So being able to, as you’re going back to all these people that have to or not have to, we feel like we have to, but the reality is we can choose to throw off. The facade and actually just. Be who we innately are, if it’s ugly and messy.

I can’t even tell you the amount of people who have thanked me for sharing something really vulnerable about myself. I was like, why are you thanking me? And they said, because now not only do I get to know you better, I get to go second. Let me tell you something that I’m going through. There’s actually this, this beautiful quote by C.

S. Lewis, which says, Friendship is born the moment that one man says to another. Oh, you too? I thought it was only me.

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: Vulnerability, going first, that’s what gets you into that territory.

Krati: Yeah. What a beautiful thing to say. Um, yeah, and I think you’re, you’re bang on with this because I remember, I mean, we already know the, this false sort of society that Instagram has created, that Facebook has created. Like. It is I think one of the reasons why mental health issues are getting worse. Um, I do remember seeing on reddit someone there was this one line this person said in their very beautiful post that they created about Social media and why they were quitting they were quitting instagram.

They were like my Uh, mess is so messy, something like that, that no picture could ever capture the extent of it. Like they had struggles in their lives that they said, I do share my struggles, but I’m never ever able to share all of the nuance, all like the extent of it and the depth to which it would in that moment destroy me.

And then the work that I would have to do to put my pieces back together that could never be captured in a post in a photograph. That simply cannot be done. And I now feel like I just lie in all of my posts. They were, they were in the industry. They were, , doing the personal development work. They were a coach.

And they felt like they lied to their followers. And that hit me so hard. That was the same day I also went ahead and I was like, yeah, same, same. I feel the same way. And yeah, so I was like, okay, not, not doing this anymore. This feels false. This is not right. But I think that as you’re So right, this has created such a massive barrier.

When the first time I found out about this place in America where you can go and click pictures that make it look like you’re on a private jet. I was like, what has to be broken inside you for you to feel the necessity to do that?

Zoe: yes, 100%.

Krati: not like private jets. When did it become an expected part where you have to click? I have wealthy friends. I have never seen them traveling on a private jet. That doesn’t make me create any kind of idea in my head about are they lying about how rich they are? How come they’ve never been on a private?

When did it become like so important to you that you would create like a false Story and what would that what is that doing to you if you’re putting up pictures that are creating lies?

Zoe: You know, I love that you’re saying this because it’s making me think about something for the first time. And, you know, we’re the most anxious generation in all of history. And I wonder if it’s because We have to lie, so often. When you, you know, Our parents teach you growing up, don’t lie. Well, why? Because, first off, your story snowballs, you have to cover up every single, it gets more complex, and you’re always looking over your shoulder for, when’s someone gonna figure me out?

Why not just let people figure you out from the beginning? And then decide, mm, it’s not what I’m looking for in a friend, or, that’s exactly what I want. That’s, that’s the approach that I decided. I am front footed with vulnerability. I’m just gonna share with you where I’m at in life, what my dreams are, and, and what I’m struggling with. And if you feel like, oh, that’s too much for me, that’s actually a gift. Thank you for deciding early so that we’re not, you know, hours into this. And then you say, actually, I was just kidding. I was just using you, you know, like, cool. Nobody wants

Krati: Nobody wants that. Yeah. Do you think it’s something, you know, doing the work that you do, do you think this is something that we as a society collectively can do? Like reach a point where there are more, there’s more authenticity, genuine authenticity, not what, like not a term that people throw around to make the content work, but genuine authenticity, the messy.

reality, you know, for, I mean, I don’t feel it necessary for you to share pictures from your hospital room for you to like, I always am very unsure of what I’m looking at. When I see someone crying on camera, I’m like, why, why, why would you do that? Because you know, I would never, ever be okay with someone turning the camera on or when I’m crying, it’s like my chest is about to cave in.

There’s no way I’m going to hold up a camera and then talk to. So I don’t know, maybe there are people who need that and I’m not judging that. I have, I’m just saying that I don’t know if every time I see a post like that, that’s authentic. Okay. And I, I fail. I completely fail with all of the work I’ve done in psychology.

I fail to understand that people, for those of you who create this post and it’s not genuine, what is your motivation? What are you thinking? Um, and so I really, considering how deep this pit. goes, and how bad things have gotten at this point. Do you think there could ever be, um, a point where people will start to be more authentic, genuinely authentic, be more open, like we can repair what, to my understanding, to some extent, social media and to some extent people have broken?

Zoe: So I do. I am really hopeful. I do believe it can be repaired and it starts with this action. And if you’re listening on audio, what I’m doing is I’m taking my phone and I’m putting it behind me.

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: And I’m being present with the person that’s right in front of me. You bring up an interesting point with the crying on camera.

Now, I’m a very emotional person. There are multiple podcast episodes where I’m brought to tears. Because of, of what I’m talking about, right? But if you’re the person who is experiencing something and just starts crying to your followers, then I think there’s a huge issue. Because the only time that I believe someone should put a camera in front of their face when they’re going through something that’s raw and real, is if they’re about to FaceTime a friend.

Krati: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Zoe: Because that’s the type of relationship everyone’s looking for, and we’re just looking for someone to see us. Right.

And so some of us like to cast a wide net, right? Because we’re thinking, well, I’m just being real. Like someone’s got to accept me. And if they don’t, blah, blah, blah. We all care about what people think.

So let’s start there. Let’s stop pretending we all care because that has to do with protecting ourselves. That’s a survival instinct.

But when you’re casting a wide net. You’re actually doing the opposite of what you’re hoping for because we want to actually zero in and drill a deep well of those type of relationships.

And I want to share some kind of data and statistics so that people have an understanding of what this will take.

Okay, so there is this concept called the Dunbar Principle, and it is the sociological limits that we have, the capacity we have for relationships in our lives. And I’m only going to focus on three of the five concentric circles, but the tightest circle is actually called the core.

The core is The amount of close friends, like these are your people. These are your ride or dies. These are the rich friendships. Okay. The max amount that we can have in our core group, every single one of us is two to five people. So I bring this up because earlier you brought up your brother and you’re like, he has all these friends.

Well, let me explain how this works out of those friends. Only two to five of them know the deepest, darkest parts of him. The next concentric circle out from close friends is just friendships. And the max limits that you can have is 12 to 15 in that camp right there. Now, I articulate it when it comes down to timing.

Your close friends, your, your tightest circle, those are the people that you talk to almost every day. Right? And it’s different, it’s different for the person. But whoever you talk to most, those are your closest friends. The next circle out from that, people that you talk to, um, weekly or multiple times a month. Then, it goes out from there and your sociological limits get less and less from that point forward. Because the depth is reserved for the most people. But they actually did a study on how long does it take? To, one, make a friend, and then make a close friend. And this study was pretty mind blowing because they found out that, on average, to go from stranger to friend, it takes 90, nine zero, hours. And then from there, to make a close, rich, ride or die friendship, it takes 200 hours.

Krati: Whoa.

Zoe: And I say that because most people listening right, right now, hear that and they’re like, Whoa, girl, I don’t have time for that.

Okay, sorry about ya, but I’m just gonna live my lonely life. But the thing is, we do have time for it.

Krati: Mm. Okay.

Zoe: Are we choosing to make time for it? Because we believe we’re actually worth making the time for that. I actually think that your social fitness is as important as your physical fitness, because if this is the key marker for how long of a life you will live, then I think that some of us who work out five days a week actually need to either bring a friend into that fitness journey with us or cut back on two physical fitness days a week and replace it with social fitness to actually holistically become, healthier.

The, uh, CDC, the Center for Disease Control in America, has found that loneliness, the impacts of loneliness on our body is as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.

Krati: No wonder everybody’s depressed.

Zoe: 100%! That is, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say. And that shows the gravity and the magnitude and also the importance of doing this work. This is not a wake up at 4am unless if you’re crotty, you do. Wake up at 4 a. m. Do a cold plunge, meditate, journal. This is not one of those things. This is something that every single day you have to choose you’re worth doing and that the other people in your life are worth it as well. And I say all that because we have to come into it with a game plan and understand what the cost is going to be. It’s going to cost Time. That’s the biggest thing it’s going to cost, right? And that’s our most finite resource. It’s going to cost us our time. It’s going to cost us our vulnerability. It’s going to sometimes financially cost us.

If you’re a person who says, I don’t hang out with people unless I’m eating food. Well, it’s gonna cost you something then, right? There’s a lot of costs behind it and you’re worth every single one of those costs. That’s what I truly believe. Every single person listening is worth. The cost and the risk.

Krati: Yeah. You know, you keep saying one thing, , that, , really stands out to me is you keep saying that you have to believe that you’re worth it. Because very often when we say something like I don’t have time for this. I don’t have time for this person we think it comes from a place of confidence when it really doesn’t.

It actually comes from a place of insecurity because you don’t think you are worth that kind of investment. It’s not that the other person isn’t. It’s you. You feel like you have to show up for all of your many, many responsibilities, which is true. But, you know, I make time, like I’m these days doing 90 minutes of workout, 90 minutes of exercise.

That’s a lot. I don’t have to do it, but I do it because my health needs that. My body needs it. And I deserve it. So you are bang on. We have to change how we talk about it. Yes, it’s an investment. Yes, it requires a lot of maneuvering of your schedule. Um, yeah, people are busy these days, but you make time for what you think is the priority that matters.

But when it comes to friendships and social connection, the reason you don’t do it is because you are afraid and you don’t think you’re worth it.

Zoe: I couldn’t have said it any better than that. That was absolutely perfect. Yes, and thank you for telling it. And thank you for echoing that sentiment, because It doesn’t matter what voice tells it to you, your voice is the one that you listen to most. So if you’re even having trouble right now thinking that and saying, Zoe, you don’t know me, okay? You don’t actually know what I’ve been through. You don’t know how awful my life is. Nobody wants shush, okay? Stop those thoughts right now. I want you to walk to the mirror and say to myself I’m worth it. I’m worth having these incredible friendships, and I don’t want to be lonely anymore.

And for bonus points, talk to yourself in third person, because when someone says your name, even if it’s yourself, there’s a different connection and response that our brain gives. So, you’re right, that’s what I’m trying to drill home in this episode, is because It starts and ends with you because that’s all we can control, right?

So might as well take the risks necessary because we believe we’re worth it. And that’s the one thing we can control.

Krati: That is so true It’s like having a devastating breakup and then not wanting to date after that It’s not because you don’t think there is someone good out there for you It’s because you just don’t want to risk another heartbreak, but perhaps, you know, your Long term happiness is worth that heartbreak also, even though you know, it always has devastating consequences, but it’s something You can make your way back to a saner place.

It’s just going to take work and you are worth that work. It’s amazing Yeah, thank you for pointing that out Now if this is reaching people who are listening and they are beginning to sort of get on the same page What advice would you give them what can help them build? deeper, more meaningful connections?

What are the do’s and don’ts here? What is, what is behavior that they should avoid? And what are things that they can do to perhaps create new deeper connections and to deepen the connections that they already have?

Zoe: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of things. Um, I love this question and I could literally talk about this for four hours straight. So I’m just kind of gonna let my brain go where it goes with this because oftentimes, um, we think that hiding behind a screen is sufficient because it’s less risk. I mean, dating apps too, right?

It starts with a conversation but we’re talking about this facade that you can put on. And the best thing that you can do to move the needle forward is open that front door. Walk out of the house and go somewhere. And I, and I know that Krati, you’re telling me that you have a lot of long distance friendships and, and that’s great too.

But I’m assuming that even in those long term friendships, there’s not just phone calls, they’re video calls. Because communication is broken down into three parts. Body language, tone, and words. And here’s how the breakdown actually works. Body language. is 55 percent of our communication.

Our tone is 38 percent and the words are only 7 percent of it.

So our body language is actually really important. Now, you’re probably guessing where I’m going. I’m going to talk about body language, right? And, and I can already hear it. Oh, I’m so awkward when I meet people. Like, obviously I don’t want to do that. Well, there’s ways to make yourself Less awkward. But let me talk about this concept of being awkward, right? Every time I speak or host an event, I ask the room who in here believes that you’re awkward when you meet new people. I am not kidding you every single time, every hand goes

up. And I said, well, this is interesting because it seems like we all think we’re awkward, which means if we’re all thinking the same thing, we’re not actually

awkward. Just. The situation of meeting new people in itself is awkward. So if you’re, if you’re feeling awkward, great, that means you’re in the right place to start. And I think a great entry point to strike up a conversation is complimenting someone. I am notorious for complimenting people’s shoes and glasses.

In fact, I was going to tell you, Krati, that I like your glasses.

Krati: Thank you.

Zoe: But here’s the thing, right? Is you said, thank you. And you’re like, Oh, that was nice.

Boom. Guard down. Now we get to have a conversation and then you might be thinking, well, what do I say? Well, you can even ask people, tell me what’s the best part of your week.

Do you know how caught off guard somebody would be if you’re in line at Starbucks or McDonald’s? And you’re like, whoa, the weather out there is crazy. Cause everyone loves to talk about the weather here, especially in America. And they’re like, I know, right? And you’re like, what’s the best part of your week?

Like, if someone asks you what’s the best part of your week, you’re like, oh, thank you

for caring, actually, you know? But we’re so used to saying like, hey, how are you doing? We need to find questions and ways to flip the script and kind of not do the same dance, to change it.

And, Yes, small talk can be the start of it, but here’s how it can go, right? Let’s say that you’re at a networking event and the notorious sequence of questions is hey, what’s your name? What do you do? How long have you been working there? At least that’s how it works on this side of things But what if you had a conversation and said, tell me the best part of Of your job. Well, that’s doing a couple of things because first off, when you’re asking questions, like, tell me about the best, you’re actually priming the brain to think about positive things, which is setting the guard down even more because they know, Oh, this is going to be like an encouraging conversation we’re about to have.

And one of the techniques that I like to use when I’m getting to know someone is when we’re chatting for a little bit and. Yes, it might feel awkward and uncomfortable. I’m actually gonna share something about myself and this can happen in a networking setting too. So Krati, let’s use you and I for an example.

I’m getting to know you and I know that you’re a podcaster. I’m like, oh my gosh, like I’m just trying to get into podcasting. Hey, because you know what you’re doing, you’ve been doing this for a while. What makes someone successful at this?

Krati: Mm.

Zoe: Now, That’s an interesting question. What makes someone successful?

Because one, I just genuinely asked for your insight and advice, which means you feel. Like an expert.

Krati: Right.

Zoe: Now, now, because I shared something about myself, you actually get buy in and you want to see the results of it. And you’re talking about earlier how you started crying. Here’s what I guarantee happened.

And you can tell me. The day after you had that conversation where you cried, your friend checked in on you.

Krati: Yeah. Of course.

Zoe: And she did that because she now had buy in. She now wants to see what the result is because she gets to be part of it. And so when you give someone the gift of your vulnerability, uh, what makes someone successful at this? Or it could be something such as, let’s just say I’m struggling with something.

Hey, I am, uh, really struggling right now. One of my family members is in the hospital. Uh, Has there been a time where you’ve been Going through the same thing. And what did you do? How did you find hope with that? In fact, my two favorite questions to ask and I started this whenever I started doing those meal dates in college is what’s your biggest passion? because how people’s eyes light up when they get to talk about their biggest passion and When you see somebody’s eyes light up because they’re so passionate about something You are so pumped to support them in that journey. And another question I would ask people And this is something I, I definitely, uh, tell everybody, steal this question, is you got to share something about yourself. So in college, I would say, I’m actually really struggling, , with, with hope right now in my life. And this is honestly one of the worst places I’ve ever felt myself in.

Has there been a time where you have felt yourself in a really dark place and what did you do to pull yourself through it? Man, that, that was a shifting moment in every single conversation

because now there’s a connection point, right? Because everyone has felt pain or trials at some point or another.

So that’s a great connector point. A couple other techniques that really help is.. When you nod at someone, this is, this is something that a lot of us do mistakenly, is we’re in a conversation and someone’s telling us something and we’re nodding really fast. We’re like, mm-hmm . Yeah. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm But that’s actually doing the opposite of what we’re hoping it does because we’re thinking we’re agreeing with them. But instead, karate’s actually doing it right

Krati: ha.

ha.

Zoe: you’re listening on audio, she just did it right Now. What’s better to do is a slow, triple nod. They have found through research that when someone is talking and sharing something about themselves, if you do a slow triple nod, someone will speak 67%. Longer

Krati: Hmm, right.

Zoe: and also tilting your head slightly to the side and leaning in shows someone you’re genuinely interested in what they have to say

Krati: Okay.

Zoe: Have you ever have you ever had a conversation with someone where you’re talking to them and they’re like leaning I’m purposely away from the microphone but they’re they’re leaning so far back from you and they’re slouched over

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: and you and you’re kind of thinking in the back of your head like Do they even care?

Krati: Ha, yeah! So true, so true.

Zoe: That’s what, that’s what our body language is communicating. And if we’re fidgeting with our hands, and we’re nervous, and we keep checking our phone. One, if you keep checking your phone when someone’s talking to you, hello, that’s rude. Nobody likes

that. If you’re fidgeting with your hands, that’s making someone feel like they should fidget with their hands too. The best thing to do is literally just lean in, intently listen, give a, give a genuine smile. Whenever something’s actually making you smile and also tell yourself at the back of your head, wait, I’m, I’m worth building this rich friendship because even reminding yourself of that helps relax your body and your mind.

And I’m going to go a little bit further with this because when we’re having conversations with people and we’re getting to know them, sometimes we need to be mindful of our pace. Now. I used to interview people instead of have a conversation with people. Here’s actually a really funny story. My best friend and I almost never became best friends because of this.

So when we met, we also looked like twins, which was a weird thing. So it was like this funny, Oh, this is my twin. We should probably get to know each other. So we went to dinner. And I sat down. I was like, I’m so excited to meet this person and get like, actually get to know them. And I just started asking questions, start asking questions, more questions.

I’m asking so many questions and I’m like, man, I’m getting to know her. This is so great. And dinner ends and I leave. And I’m like, wait, she was kind of rude. Cause she didn’t ask me any questions about myself.

Krati: Yeah. Ha ha

Zoe: left

saying, Oh my

god, I wish she would shut up so I could have asked her some questions about herself. Now thankfully, we’re friends today because we actually shared that with each other of how that didn’t go according to plan and now we’re best friends. It’s important to actually leave space. Pausing isn’t awkward, you know? Like, so often, we’re like, Oh no, there’s awkward silence. It’s not awkward unless you make it

awkward.

It’s just silence, okay?

Krati: yeah. Ha ha.

Zoe: And I read somewhere this interesting research that it takes 200 milliseconds for the brain To form a thought that we then say, but on average, we speak after 80 milliseconds, which means we are literally talking without thinking. So, so even saying that I just left a long pause after it to remind myself, girl, you better slow down.

Okay. Because you might be talking too fast,

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: but pausing is definitely an important part of building a connection with people. And A couple other tips that I, I love to share is don’t ask why questions, and I’ll explain why, because growing up, we’re so curious, we say why to everything, right? Why? Why?

Why? As an adult, let me give you an example. Krati, why are you looking at me like that? Didn’t you feel like so def like, oh my god. You felt offensive. Like what am I doing wrong? And that’s actually, that’s actually what asking a why question does is it makes someone feel like they need to be on guard.

So. Oftentimes just a small tweak instead of a why question, start with what or how that disarms conversation and makes it so much more open instead of saying, why did you move to this place? What made you move from here to here? That’s a way more dynamic question, right?

Krati: Right.

Zoe: So that’s a perfect example of just small tweaks in our conversation that we can make as well.

And I had one more tip, but I forgot it and I’m sure it’ll come flooding back in a couple of minutes.

Krati: Yeah. But all of that is so super relatable. Like this is stuff that we need. This is very accessible advice. And this is stuff that we either have been guilty of or have noticed in someone else and been put off by. Because the phone thing, that is like. Anytime, if you’re talking to me, you’re going to pick up your phone or look at the TV.

I’m going to tell you to fuck off and I’m going to walk away for sure. And then good luck getting another conversation from me. Don’t do that. That’s so rude. People do it all the time. And, um, the other thing you said, like, I’m all for being vulnerable. I think that’s great. But as a podcaster, I can tell you, I’ve had guests on the show who just would not share it.

Like, why would you? Be a guest on a podcast. If you weren’t going to talk, and then I would have to talk more to get them to come out and share. And then every time I would listen back onto those conversations, like when I back, when I used to edit my own stuff and that back then I was new at it. Also, I would notice the sheer amount of stupid that would come out of my mouth.

Like stupid in the sense, this is not like, this is what, why would I share this? This is so silly. Why was I even. And a lot of the things that were exaggerated, that I only said so my guests would share, that I would just be like, this is what happens when you rush to fill silence. It’s not like you’re being genuinely vulnerable or sharing something deep and meaningful.

You’re just saying words. And

Zoe: Wow.

Krati: it,

Zoe: That, that’s a great example. No, thank you for sharing that because I think everybody listening to that said, Oh yeah, no, I’ve definitely done that before too. So

Krati: yeah, and then if, if, you know, this was, I’m sharing an example from my podcast work, but if that were a friend that you did it with, it would be harder than to go back and have the second conversation because you just, you’ve no idea what the Why was I even, what am I even saying at this point? And then the second conversation is just going to be like, I’m going to, now I’m going to have to clean up spill.

Yeah.

Zoe: Yeah, totally. And you know, a really, a really disarming question as well is if you’re fumbling and bumbling and you’re like, I don’t know what to ask next. You can start a question with, tell me about. Insert the rest because that’s so open ended that somebody can be, can’t be like, yes, no, that’s not what I said.

I said, tell me about, you know, and tell me about is a great question where you can just pull such depth and richness, uh, for someone. And it won’t feel like you’re pulling teeth. It feels like you’re, you’re pulling their heart actually. Oh yes. Is it a pulling teeth? You’re pulling their heart because you’re actually showing I have a genuine interest in what you’re about to say.

Krati: Yeah. That’s amazing. This is crazy. But, um, I started like there was a friend of mine. They were always, there was always some issue going on in their life. And they would, like, the friendship was more, they felt that it focused on them than on me, which was fine for me. It was a period in their life where they needed me more than I sort of, I was fine.

But they would be sharing something with me, like, this is going on, this is what’s happening. A lot of the time it would be professional issues. I would bring out a notebook and a pen and I would start jotting down notes. And I would just be like, this is where we are. This is where we’re going to get, uh, this is where we want to go.

This is what’s standing. In the middle of this, you know, path, and this is why we, and I later, I felt like, what the fuck was that? Did you actually take notes in the middle of a conversation with your friend? But my friend was like, I love this. I’ve got this pinned up to my. Like they felt like I really care.

So that was me being super, my, my very awkward self, but to that person, it was like, She really cares. cares

Zoe: it’s a gift. Yeah. No, I love that you said that because I have ADHD and so if there’s a conversation where I’m like, this is gonna go

places, I actually will be like, can I take notes? If they’re in my house, right? I’m not like whipping it out for dinner, but It’s really interesting that you say that because, um, you and I, I feel like are similar where we really want to help people.

You know, we just desire for people to be the best version of themselves. And I have found that that is a double edged sword. And often I have needed to teach myself to start with the question. Whenever someone starts unloading on me is say, Hey, I want to, I want to listen, but here’s what I want to know.

Do you want me to just listen or do you want my feedback and insight on what you’re saying? Because the times that I have not asked that, Oh boy, has that gone South? Like I just start sharing like, Hey, like, here’s what you’re missing. Here’s what you’re not seeing. And people are like. I didn’t ask for your help.

Okay. I just wanted you to listen and I wanted to cry and now I feel worse than I did before, you know,

so that’s something that I really needed to teach myself to do. But even the fact that your friend knew that if she actually felt uncomfortable with it, I would think. That with your type of friends, they would have stopped you and be like, can you please stop taking notes?

But she didn’t. Right? And so you’re like, I felt stupid, but she’s like, this is amazing. Now I have a chart for my life. And so let’s think about that. Right? You, you might be the friend that’s super analytical, be that analytical

friend. There’s ways to, to be your best self as you’re helping someone else pull that out of them too.

Krati: Yeah. Yeah. But I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the other person is thinking this space is all mine. I get to bring it all out and let this person like the, cause you, this other person feels like you’re so invested in their growth and their success. Even if you’re showing it in a very, to your understanding, a very weird way, they’re thinking the only thing they are seeing here is your total investment.

So like you said, asking open ended questions, let them have the space, let there be silence if necessary. Because anytime somebody’s being vulnerable, there has to be, there are going to be pauses in that story. And if you rush to fill in, you’ve just ruined that what was going to be an amazing moment in that, the journey of that friendship.

Zoe: Exactly. Yep. Couldn’t, couldn’t say it better. And there’s a difference between someone who’s consistently that friend of like, I just need to talk about myself again. You know, they’re like, I need to vent. Um, and, and you’re thinking it gets to a certain point where like,

Krati: Yeah,

Zoe: Are you going to ask me any questions?

Are it, and those are what I would consider toxic friendships. But there’s a caveat to that because oftentimes we’re such a selfish species that we think two months in a row that someone’s been going through something. We’re thinking they don’t really care about me. I’m going to drop them. I don’t think you should ever end a friendship without having an opportunity and actually being bold enough to share how you’re feeling about it.

So, for instance, let’s use you and I as an example, Krati. Let’s say that we’re really close friends, um, but you have been going through something. And, like, you’ve been going through it for months and months and months. And I’m just like, oh my god, like, she’s so draining. She’s so exhausting. She, she doesn’t even know what’s going, she’s not even asking me about myself.

Here’s what I should do. Instead of just ghosting you one day and being like, I’m fed up with you. The best thing I could do is say, Krati, I care about you so deeply. And your friendship means so much to me. And I, because it means so much to me, I want to be transparent with you. The majority of the conversations have made me feel like I don’t matter to you. I did an I statement. It makes me feel like I don’t matter to you. Because as we’ve been talking, the majority of the conversation has been about what you’re going through, which I want to remain with you through that. And I also want you. I want your friendship. I want you to care about me. And you might not have even known.

This was happening, which is why I wanted to share it with you to make you aware that this is what I’m feeling. Would you be willing to, and then ask for what you need? Do you know how many friendships would change and actually be saved

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: if we had the courage to be that honest with each

Krati: Yeah. Oh my God. If I, you know, friends who have done that, uh, like friends, I remember. Once going on and on and on about, uh, how I was working out so much, how I was working seven hours a day and eating healthy and cooking also and like doing all of the stuff. And my friend was like in the space where she was taking it easy.

She was, you know, doing a lot of self care work. She was just, you know, really, um, unplugging. She’s like, are you trying to make me feel guilty? Cause everything you’ve just said, it feels like it was aimed at me. You were very deliberately trying to make me. And. Even though I was like, whoa, no, and then we talked about it But at the end of that conversation like when I got off the phone, I wasn’t feeling attacked.

I wasn’t feeling awkward I wasn’t feeling oh my god. What did I just do? I was thinking I love this person I can be totally safe with this person because this person will tell me exactly how they’re feeling, you know It’s fine if you don’t want to do confrontations, but even if you text me later Like, if any time a friend would be like, I felt like I wasn’t really present in that conversation because you didn’t make room for me.

I would be like, I, this is, this is my bud, this is my pal, I can trust this person to always tell me what’s going on, so now I don’t have to worry about whether I’m being too much, or whether I am taking all the air in this room, or whether I’m inconveniencing them, because even if I am inconveniencing them, they’ll tell me.

And they’ll tell me when yes, it’s an inconvenience. I’m still gonna do it because I love you I have done that to my friends. I will tell them they’ll call me at 3 a. m In the morning, I would be like dude. I’m I was about to wake up in 30 minutes You took away my 30 minutes of sleep, but it’s fine Uh, unless this is going to be some bullshit that, you know, I’m going to, it’s going to be fine.

Tell me what’s going on. And then if it’s bullshit, they’re going to hear it from me. If it’s not bullshit, I am there. My morning schedule is going to be put off. I’ll sit with them till for however long they need me.

Zoe: So good. That’s so good. No, that’s that’s a living breathing example of exactly what I’m talking about and if your friend hadn’t said and yes It might have made you feel like whoa, chill out You know at first if you assume the best intentions of the people you love then holy cow This is a different ballgame altogether,

you know and and Often because we just think people are out to get us.

If we get in that mindset, we’re like, Oh my God, why’d you say that? Oh my God, that’s so offensive. It’s just like to have deep, rich friendships, we have to choose to drop a fence.

Krati: Yes.

Zoe: There’s other choices we have to make too, though. I, I appreciate that you said. To people that don’t like confrontation. I don’t like confrontation.

Okay, but I have started this thought process Where saying, I don’t like confrontation is not a complete sentence. I have a new new sentence before I need to address something. I say, I don’t like confrontation and I have to do it anyways to actually restore what’s going wrong

Krati: right

Zoe: And I believe I’m worth that.

Krati: Yep. Yep. There’s that sentence again

Zoe: It might fail.

Exactly. It might fail. I might flop. They might get mad at me, but. If I’m a friend that believes in the best of intentions, then I am just believing that my friends are going to believe the best intentions about me too, and truly seek to know my heart. And sometimes I’ll say, Hey, I’m going to be honest with you.

I don’t know how to say what I’m about to say. Okay. I think it’s going to sound wrong, but please give me grace and please just hear my heart when I say this, because the truth is I care about you and, and, then I present it

Krati: Yeah. That’s amazing. And you know, everything you’ve said up to this point has really brought home to me a lot of things that I don’t do or that I should do or that I’m doing wrong. And you know, the one thing I will say is if someone like, like my inner circle is small, inner circles are usually, you know, they are small.

I know a lot of people, but the people, like the deep, deep, rich friendships are, there are three to four people in my life

like that Yeah. But that my friends. Shout out to all my friends, they are such immensely beautiful people, like they are the best of humanity and I, you know, I kept thinking while we were talking that if someone as closed off as like, you know, as much of a loner as I am, as closed off as I am,

if someone like me can have these, like my, I, yes, three to four people, but three to four, like the best, they’re awesome people. They’re the sweetest. They’re the nicest. If someone like me can have that, I bet like anybody listening, you, you’ve got

Zoe: Wow. Wow. No, I, I love that. And it’s, and it’s so well stated because my goal is that as we get to the end of this episode that people are thinking about either the existing friendships in their lives or the friendship they want in their lives and are leaving this excited and ready to do

something about it.

Krati: yes, yes, yes,

Zoe: I have a feeling that you’re about to end this call and you’re about to call your people and just say, Hey, I just want you to know how much I care about you and how grateful I am for you in my life.

Krati: absolutely. A hundred percent. I’m going to do that.

Zoe: Exactly, because life is so much better when we’re doing it together. And that’s what I want to impart onto every single person that’s listening to this. And you can never tell somebody enough how much you love them, how much you care about them, and how grateful you are for them. So why not start?

Doing that

Krati: Yes.

Zoe: today.

Krati: Yep. Yep. Yep. I love that. , there’s one question that I feel like that’s almost necessary at this point. There are people who want to do the work that you are, you know, advising. You shared some, like, this has been a masterclass.

And I bet people are going to run with the advice you’re giving them. But what if. You feel very broken, like you’ve, you’ve had some nasty experiences, your trust has been damaged badly.

Zoe: Thank you for asking that because I am this person, that best friend breakup broke me in every sense of the word. And here’s the crazy thing about community and friendship is that the risk is inevitable and yes. You’ve been hurt before. Yes, someone has betrayed your trust, has destroyed your confidence, has made you feel like absolute shit, and like you’re nothing and you don’t matter.

And, we have to be willing to risk that to find out that that’s not true. That’s the crazy thing about it, is that There might have been people that hurt you. Let’s say people plural. They’re not the whole collective 8 billion people on Earth. And you know what else is crazy? Is that every single person has felt burned by somebody before.

Okay? And yet we’re all still out here fumbling, trying to And yet we’re all still out here fumbling So, because on the other side of that risk, you’re going to find, I truly believe this. If you don’t give up, you are going to find the friend that you’ve wanted, who is loyal, who cares for you, who takes care of your heart, who guards and protects your trust, but you have to be willing to be hurt again in order to get there. And that’s the challenge for all of us. And, let’s say it together, you are

Krati: worth

it!

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So, so true. This is, , a huge, point that makes me feel almost dizzy, uh, panicky, triggers my anxiety, but sometimes I deliberate, like I am solitary. I grew up without friends. I love my books. I live inside my head. I have conversations and conversations and conversations with myself.

I am the most fun person I know. But sometimes, sometimes I wonder, not dating, because I don’t date, Um, I stopped like a couple years back and I haven’t dated in like it’s been a long time And I wonder if not dating not going deeper with friendships that come my way like being it’s like not I rarely answer my phone so my friend just offered to pay me money every month just so I would pick up his call and like What the

fuck is that and I was so upset when he said that not because he said it but I was like What is going on with me?

This is an awesome person. Why would I do this? Um, I started to wonder how much of this is, you know, me loving my solitude, me being very comfortable in my own company and, and is there an element of emotional cowardice there? Like, am I being an emotional coward at points? Could that genuinely be, I don’t, I’m still exploring this.

It’s a very, it’s something that I’m journaling about. I’m like, I am a very confident person. I am so comfortable in my own skin, but I have to wonder if there is an element to that, of that in this. In how, yeah, I’m doing things.

Zoe: Well, your vulnerability is a gift right now. So I want to tease this out with you. And I, if your heart’s pounding girl, it’s because we don’t know who’s all listening to this, but I want to, I want to ask you a question, right? Is because you asked, is this emotional cowardice? Let’s figure it out together. What makes you choose not to answer the phone when this person calls?

Krati: Well, I’m mostly so happy and having so much fun in my own space, doing my own thing. And I know that if I answer the phone, here’s the thing, 90 percent of the time my friends call me out of the blue, like not a planned conversation. They’re going through something. They’re going to need me. And while I want to be there, I, you need to just let me know 20, 30 minutes before you call me.

If you don’t do that, I’m probably not going to answer my phone. I can be very, very lazy.

Zoe: So you’ve called yourself lazy multiple times this conversation, but I actually disagree with you. I don’t think you’re lazy. I think that you’re just making choices and priorities that aren’t necessarily aligned with what other people’s are.

Have you ever considered that?

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: And I think that communicating that to your friends of, Hey, I would love to talk to you, but can we schedule a call. And no, it doesn’t kill the vibe. It actually makes sure that I’m focused on you and only you

Krati: Yeah.

Zoe: when we talk. I think that could actually be a game changer for you. Have, have you ever considered that? Or what have those conversations been like when you have presented that

Krati: Yeah, like, uh, my, like, my best friend, like my absolute best friend. They know this. They will tell me that we’re gonna call. I’m going through something. I need you. And as soon as you say, I’m going through something. I need you. Oh, I’m going to show up. I’m definitely going to be there, but tell me so I can plan my day.

Cause I need my alone time. But if you’ve taken up 90 minutes of my time, I’m fine giving that time to you. But now I have a podcast conversation and then I have to work. And then I have to, I also make time for my parents. I make sure to three times a day, 30 minutes. Like, so basically 60 to 90 minutes a day, I hang out with my mom.

Um, so. Yeah, I have to do that as well. Not that I have to do it. It’s, you know, she’s my

bestie. Yeah, she’s my bestie. She’s my absolute best friend. So I want to do that as well. So then it feels like I, I don’t want to, like, this is more you’re adding to my plate and now things are spilling over.

I don’t know where to hold everything. And, and I think, you know, generally like there’s that very cheesy quote that says, when you try to be a part of my life, you’re not competing with another person. You’re competing with my solitude.

And I think that’s the problem. So my mother genuinely worries that someday she’s going to, my room is going to be empty because I’ve gone to live in a cave.

Like she genuinely worries about me. Um, and, and that’s, that’s the thing I think. But again, you know, as I said, I also wonder if there is this, the, that exhaustion that I feel dealing with people could have something to do with the fact that there’s an element of emotions, like the emotions are ever present, and it’s the emotions that exhaust me because emotions also bring fear with them.

They bring attachment, they bring with them. More investment than you’re willing to give.

Zoe: Sure. I agree with that. I think that oftentimes we are actually burned out and we don’t even realize it. And I’m, I would need to know more about you to figure that out as to what is your specific situation, Krati. But I think that the point remains of being able to communicate, , what you need is important.

Especially when someone else wants or needs you. So, obviously, emergencies are emergencies. And I have a system with my friends where I say code red need you as soon as you look at your phone. Okay, that’s like life and death. This is an emergency. Okay, I’m spiraling. I need to talk to somebody because these thoughts are not working right now.

And I need somebody else to speak life and speak truth to kill the thoughts that I’m having. And scheduling is not a bad thing. Like there’s, there’s, we’re just like, Oh, like, Ooh, it feels gross to make it feel like it’s a business meeting. No, it’s not a business meeting. What’s important to you goes on your calendar.

Friendships can be the same way. So go first and make the plans. If someone calls you and you actually want to talk to them, but you’re also loving your alone time, then. You text that friend back and you say, Hey, I’m free at 6 PM tonight. That’s the earliest, or I’m free at 4 PM Thursday. When can you chat then it puts the that I’m making it important enough because it is important to me Will you match that

right?

And there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, I actually right after we get off this call I have a scheduled call with people that I haven’t talked to in months It’s a FaceTime of course because I love a good FaceTime call,

but the point remains, what’s important to you goes on your calendar and also sometime soon and someday are not days of the week.

So if you’re like, oh my god, we should grab coffee sometime. Well, that’s never gonna happen. So I started a practice of, hey, Krati, I love what I’m hearing about you so, so far and I want to get to know you even better. Um, let’s grab coffee in the near future. I whip out my phone. Genuinely, I do this literally to this day.

I say, What do you have available in the next two weeks? Now, some people might be like, Oh my god, that’s so, like, aggressive. I don’t think it’s

aggressive. I think it’s intentional.

Right? And if someone’s like, Oh, um, uh huh, I gotta check with my spouse, I gotta see, you know, then this is literally what I’ll do.

I’ll say, No problem. Let me text you tomorrow, after you get a chance to look at your calendar, and we’ll sync up then.

Krati: Yes.

Zoe: I’m doing this on purpose because I want to see, is this person going to match my energy? And is this as important to them as it is to me? Because if it’s not, then I already know this friendship is going to be limited in depth and scope.

And that’s okay, but not necessarily what I’m ultimately going after and looking for in the season of my life.

Krati: Yes. I’m going to be doing a lot of what you’ve shared with me in March. As I said, you know, I’m going to wind up. A lot of things in my life and in March I’m gonna do let’s find out how that goes because it might just end up with because I’ve done this before a few years back I did this I was like I’m gonna be more like my brother I’m gonna I was channeling him all the time and then I realized what the fuck is going on I was going clubbing I was partying all the time I was like this is not me I don’t like what is what’s happening And I then went back to doing things, to doing how I do things.

And I’m going to do this again in March. Maybe I’ll end up back to, no, I was fine. This is who I am. This is my energy. This is the level of commitment I can give. And that’s it. Or maybe we’ll find out some new aspects myself. I think this is something else that’s important. You’ve got to experiment. Even if you are very happy with who you are, very comfortable, you’re thriving, you’re financially, everything’s awesome.

Health wise, everything’s awesome. You still got to experiment. You’re going to find out maybe there’s something hiding in there that’s going to be, you know, it’s going to bring out some new aspects to your character that are even more fun. And I think someone like you having this conversation, I think you have really inspired me to do it.

I hope you’ve inspired my listeners to do it as well. Any last message you want to share with anybody who’s feeling lonely and may need your help? Yeah, I mean, I think it’s not even for,

Zoe: people that necessarily are feeling lonely as much as people that aren’t feeling anything. Right. Because I think loneliness can oftentimes mask itself as numbness and that feeling of, is there anything even better in life? Is life worth living and not even necessarily in that dark of a place, but like, is there anything behind all of this?

And the only way you can find out is by walking with somebody else or a tribe or a group of people in finding out. What makes it worth it and what your purpose could be because we need you to you who’s listening. We need you, what you have to bring to friendship in this world is so important. And I can say that about friendship without even knowing you, because if you’ve made it this far and you’ve listened to this episode, I already know you’re the type of friend that wants to be an incredible friend.

Therefore you’re on a mission to find incredible friends by first being that incredible friend yourself. And yes, there’s different flavors of it. I am very high energy. I’m super, you know, spunky and crazy, quite frankly, and Krati likes to be alone and is more reserved and talks way more patiently than I do, and both things are awesome.

Right?

Krati: absolutely.

Zoe: And let me, let me also say this because I think we often fall, um, flat when it comes to this is we just try and find people that are like us, let me tell

you, all of my closest friends are nothing like me, their beliefs, their lifestyle, what they want career wise, none of us are the same, but you know, what is the same, the values and character traits that we’re looking for.

Krati: Yes.

Zoe: You can’t find out if somebody’s like that until you decide to go deeper and pursue that relationship and friendship. So, just because somebody loves pop music and likes, uh, doing CrossFit, you know, fitness the same way that you do, that doesn’t mean this is going to be a fabulous friendship.

Krati: Right.

Zoe: A real friendship is those that there’s this concept of iron sharpening iron when you are, you are just doing life together.

You are making each other better. You are encouraging each other. You are walking through all of it. That’s what makes life worth living. And quite honestly, friendships like that. Make us not want to be alone as much because we’re getting so much life from those other people, right? So, said another way, we want to be addicting friends because we want friendships that are addicting.

Krati: Yes. Yes.

Zoe: you can start that right now today.

Krati: Yeah, that was brilliant. Anything you want to plug or anything where you want people to come find you because you know, this was amazing. And I bet my listeners would want to learn more from you.

Zoe: Yeah. Thank you so much. That’s so generous. Uh, you can follow my podcast. It’s called accidentally intentional. I’m on YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts. And of course, every episode is ultimately about helping you destroy your loneliness by building rich, meaningful friendships. And I also have for your listeners, a free downloadable guide, five steps to build rich, meaningful friendships this year.

So it’s free. Download it, I’m sure there’ll be a link below in the description, and uh, Let’s do big things this year, guys, right? You’re worth it! Let’s go!