Dr. Perpetua Neo: How to Overcome Toxic Codependency, Own Your Identity, & Demand Better in Life

Krati: Our previous conversation that was about toxic friend groups. We talked about how we can be a better friend, how we can invite better friendships into our life. And we, we ended that conversation with the understanding that if you have clarity, about your own identity, who you are.

If you have confidence in yourself, you are better at setting boundaries. You are better at asking for what it is that you need. So let’s start there. I want to understand,, what does it take for you to be more confident in yourself? What does it take for you to cultivate a strong sense of identity so that then you can go into the world and move in your relationships, move in society with a degree of self assurance that allows you to have a quality life?

Perpetua: I would definitely like to start off with a quote by Charles Buzkoski, which says, Can you remember who you were before the world told you who you are? And that takes a lot of courage, a lot of effort to be able to do that. I mean, let’s think just in terms of, say, taking care of our bodies, right?

Physical health. I love drawing parallels in physical health because it’s something we all can relate to. So in physical health, even though the science is out there about how to Um, keep your blood sugar levels down, how to exercise enough, just walk enough, blah, blah, blah, how to eat healthier, choose protein and fiber in a good mix with some vices of course, um, people are, it’s still easier to follow the crowd because there’s safety in numbers, it’s easier not to think, so if you can think about how something so fundamental, so mundane to our lives is already plagued with self doubt and questions, Then what more when it comes to our identities because much as we are all kind of similar to some extent down to our genetic material We are also kind of different and this paradox is what makes us interesting because it helps us to get along with other people understand each other but it also makes us unique in that each of us has our own contribution and also our own different lessons in life to learn that we can transmute into superpowers and So to be able to look at who am I?

What do I like? It actually takes a lot of courage, even though most people think that it’s very easy. It’s not. It’s not easy to just live up to it as well, because you will second guess and you will doubt yourself. So part of this developing confidence, developing a love for yourself, developing respect for yourself, is being able to know what you like, what you stand for, what you’re willing to work hard for.

Krati: yeah, you know, what is funny though? There is so much content out there. That’s all focused on developing self confidence developing Certainty, you know within yourself, but if you and tell me if you disagree with me We notice around ourselves. We like people who are softer. We like people who are not that bold not that You know because a lot of the time like when you especially this is especially true for women when we meet women Who know exactly what they want?

They speak their mind, they stand up for themselves, they push back, and they do it without any uncertainty. We never look at it and say, what a very confident, ballsy woman. How wonderful, you know, that I get to know this person. We always look at it and think of, oh, this woman is very aggressive. She’s like a feminist nut.

These are like very, these are terms that I’ve heard for myself. And I will also say this, that I think of myself as a very confident person, but my first approach is always very soft. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but, you know, you do downplay things even when you know for a fact that someone has just crossed your boundaries.

Your first approach is always very quiet, very soft, and there is a tendency to like people like that. And I see that translating into then a lot of people deliberately downplaying themselves. And that obviously affects the opportunities you reach out for that obviously affects how you show up in a workplace Even in your

Perpetua: I would definitely agree that because it’s always easier to go with somebody who’s soft, goes with the flow. And then on the flip side, you know, we talk about this feminist nutter. Um, you know, we see some people who are brave and, and gung ho and do it in a way that’s very palatable. But we also see people who do it in ways that overcompensate.

It’s almost like you are, a surrogate male. And just look at your biology, I mean this is one lesson for myself in terms of biology, you know, I would spend my time wanting to be a machine, but not, not exactly very, um, it’s not exactly very successful because I’m made out of female hormones, so at any time of the month, there will be different hormones in different concentrations and ratios that are circulating through my body, changing the way I think, the way I feel, and being aware is really important.

But if I expect myself to act like a man and or overcompensate and become louder, more aggressive, almost like I have four balls instead of two balls, then it’s going to make me feel very unpalatable, almost pugnacious. And having that, that aggression that is distasteful. Can feel very threatening and unsafe to people so I don’t blame people for feeling a bit About someone being really aggressive and coarse, right?

But then um on but then if we modulate that a bit down and we see people who are able to stand their ground Um have their boundaries able to trump first power later kind of people And I like people like that. There are people I want to learn from actively, but I also am aware that it still rubbed other people the wrong way because a contrast with who you are can actually tell you a lot of things about yourself and propel this unconscious, very quick self reflection, self audit that, hmm, you’re not exactly setting up for yourself.

And it can feel very jarring and horrible, and it’s always easier not to separate how you feel about yourself from the other person or your admiration for the other person or respect for the other person. It’s easier to tar the other person instead of yourself. So in this sense, you know, there’s many layers of what’s going on when we go, when we are interacting or watching people who stand their ground.

Krati: yeah, you know it I will say this though, I mean and it’s my experience or maybe maybe it really is just my experience I don’t know. But um my i’m I have a very quiet energy. So I usually am not very I don’t really need people to notice me. I don’t really need people to. Recognize and validate me as a confident, bold person.

So yes, my approach is also initially always very soft, very, my energy is very quiet, but then if somebody crosses me, I’m not going to take it, but I always think that maybe we go too far with this self deprecation, this downplaying of our own abilities, a little too far.

And that’s one of the reasons, we send out this message to the other person that I’m, I, you can take advantage of me. And then we have to turn around and let the person know that, Oh no, that is just how I’m treating you. You actually cannot take advantage of me. So I often wonder if wouldn’t it be better if you just sort of I don’t know if I’m getting this right or not, but like if you can package ourselves in a way where the confidence is very clear, where our self worth, how much of it we have that is projected very clearly without being too aggressive.

Perpetua: I think that’s definitely something that we all can learn if we want to. And it takes, again, effort, it takes courage. So being able to tell people how to treat you, that’s basically boundaries, right? Boundaries are the playbook. And if we don’t teach another person, don’t give them the user manual, how are they going to understand that?

So I think if you are able to articulate your boundaries, you know, and, and that’s step one. If a person can consistently respect that, and repair if they accidentally violate it, That’s always a good sign. But as a litmus test, if somebody laughs at you, gaslights you, plays you down for asserting your boundaries, then that is your answer that they are not good people for you, or just not good people.

So that’s number one, being able to assert your boundaries in a graceful manner. So just as and when, when you see certain behaviors, you say, hey, that’s not cool, don’t do that. Instead of saying, oh, no, um, Why I wondering why do you want to say something like that in the wrong long winded way and over explaining you don’t have to over explain so let’s say you don’t want to take a certain holiday.

It’s okay to just say I don’t want to take that right now If you have to over explain why you can’t go to a dinner then or you feel compelled to then, you know again That puts you on shakier ground because you don’t believe in a boundaries You don’t believe in your right to say no because you’re allowed to and if somebody has to drop you because you refuse to take one holiday once Then there’s something clearly wrong with the friendship or that person, you know, the subscription fee is too high.

Krati: yeah. Like we talked about, um, Do you think is there is a way like people usually start setting boundaries when something has already gone wrong. That’s usually how it works, you know, do you

Perpetua: I mean better late than never right? I mean like how do you know what you you can’t I can’t tell you. Hey Krati, this is how you’re gonna treat me. That’s just like, you know, assuming that you’re going to be a very rude horrible person I mean that just sounds It’s wrong in the totality of human interaction.

So typically is when somebody does something that’s a bit grating or jarring that makes you feel, your body feel icky, that that’s a good point to flag it up because otherwise, you know, if all the other behaviors are good, what’s, what’s the matter? And I’m like, why do you need to raise something they have not done with them?

I mean, it just feels a bit strange, doesn’t it?

Krati: Yeah, that makes sense. , there’s a couple other aspects to this conversation that I would like to discuss with you. The one other aspect that I’m noticing more and more now is how people are not very proud of different pieces of their identity.

I often would see these videos where their religion is being criticized. And now this might be jarring to some of my listeners, but I’m a very proud practicing Hindu Sanatan Dharma.

It’s a piece of my identity that I take great pride in.

But I see people, when their religion gets attacked, they’re not very capable of defending it. Or they find it very unnecessary to defend their religion. Uh, even if it’s just a verbal discussion, I’m not talking about violence.

I do not condone that. They have a harder time defending their race. There’s, you don’t want to defend your country, you know? So these pieces of your identity, there’s another thing that is very weird to me.

It’s this whole thing about you criticizing your culture just for the heck of it. Like you are incapable of seeing any beauty in your culture. Like right now, we, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but in India, there is a huge event happening right now, the

Kumbh Mela.

Perpetua: No, I don’t know about that.

Krati: It is a huge, huge event. And more than 400 million people are going to be there, are coming there, Mela in Prayagraj from all over the world, from Brazil, from America.

Perpetua: Wow.

Krati: So 400 million people are coming to this event, which clearly means that people are fully capable of appreciating other religions. But why is it, in a confrontation, we find it so difficult to stand up for our own pieces of identity. So maybe we don’t focus this conversation on just religion.

But I want to understand why is being patriotic, being, uh, you know, proud of your race, being proud of your country, so problematic now.

Perpetua: I think to begin with how many of us actually examine what we stand for our values or even the things that we choose to do Right. So for let’s say, you know, even if I if I asked your your neighbor like hey, you know Like why are you proud of being an Indian? You know already that’s a leading question because how do I know they’re proud too?

How do we know they actually are living consciously as an Indian or a Hindu?

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: and And like, you know, even, even say, you know, in, in Singapore, right, let’s say if I look at the, like, somebody walking down the street, I may ask, um, why are you celebrating Christmas? So, for some people, there’s no meaning behind Christmas, and that’s okay.

And I mean, and that’s, maybe that’s not even a commercial meaning apart from from everybody’s out here, but okay, you know, so that’s a start. Everybody’s out here. So you’re doing this maybe for a social aspect and maybe you’re, you’re here to, to soak in the collective effervescence, which I think is a beautiful thing.

Maybe you’re seeing the lights for the first time over here and everything is all set up and over the first time in your life, maybe you’re somebody in the sixties or seventies. First time in your life, you have a whole, uh, a ready made photo booth to take. Gorgeous photos that, that you would never have dreamed of as a kid, with your, and now you can do it with your children, your grandchildren, that’s amazing.

So, if somebody can sit down and think about the meanings that they’re making, even post hoc, I think that’s a great thing. But to begin with, our minds are just so overwhelmed, we are so scattered, we have our priorities in all sorts of different things. That it’s hard to think about what we stand for. I mean, how many of us even sit down and reflect, this is why I do what I do.

It’s like brushing your teeth,

right? Most of us don’t even think we’re brushing our teeth. Most of us don’t even think why we’re eating the foods that we eat or buying the cars that we are buying.

Krati: Yeah. The way you’re describing it. I think you’re bang on, but at the same time, I’m also kind of sad that that happens. It’s so sad that that happens because,

Perpetua: Yeah.

Krati: you know, I also see, I do, I am, I’m not naive. I am also aware that sometimes cultural pride, religious pride can go too far. And we are into a territory that, that leads you down very dark paths.

So, it’s not like I don’t know that. But, at the same time, not celebrating yourself. Because at the end of the day, it is you celebrating yourself. you know, Your roots. right? This is where you come from. I like,

I’ve spoken to like my, one of my best friends is a, is an, she’s an immigrant in America. She’s a Vietnamese, , American. And I, you know, the first time she went to Vietnam, I was there.

I met up with her and I saw like when we, we would talk about her going to Vietnam before that I could hear the longing. She felt like she didn’t, she didn’t have any roots. She kind of felt like that, like, yes, I live in America and I’m proud of being here and I love my country, but at the same time, I, I want to see, like, Vietnam to her felt like a piece of her home that she had never even seen before.

And she so, when she was there, I, I could see the love that was just, you know, bursting out of her for this country that she had never explored before, but was so much a part of her. And I, I thought that is so beautiful.

Perpetua: Mm hmm.

Krati: But tell me, If you think, I know I cut you off, so if you want to say something

Perpetua: Yeah. Um, so, you know, like, I, I think the story of your friend is very beautiful. And I also remember you studied in London, right? So, so as somebody who, who is diaspora, for whatever reason, you tend to become more aware of who you are. Because I remember my sociology professor telling us that it’s a boundary contrast.

Not in terms of boundaries, good boundaries, um, these are my boundaries, kind of, but rather, you know, when two things come together, in contact with each other, there’s a boundary, right? So that when the boundaries contrast, you become more aware of who you are, which is why diaspora people tend to become a bit more respectful, a bit more curious about where they come from.

It’s like when I started teaching Mandarin to white kids, right? That was when I started, for the first time, to break down the words in my head. And I’m like, Oh, this is beautiful. Because before then, it was just automatic, right? So, you know, it’s like, it’s certain experiences and exercises or, or, or your, or where your context that makes you think, and then of course, you know, in, in contrast, when you’ve always been in a certain country and, um, or a certain culture, and not even necessarily you haven’t left it, but it’s also about what is the social cost or the social advantage of acting in a certain way.

So in Singapore, I remember growing up there was a coolness in becoming Christian because it’s associated with being Western And I’m not sure about the figures today right now, but it was something quite big then So people will look at me and say you must be Christian and I’m like, I must be Christian. I mean, yes, I’m Catholic I was baptized Catholic.

I had no choice in that. Okay, let’s get clear on that Yeah, okay, so I had no choice in that. But yes, I am Christian technically speaking, but why do you say You must be and say, oh, because you look and sound very Western and like what on earth do you mean by that is really, really strange because here am I running in and out of temples and all like into places trying to hunt down my Chinese roots because I’m trying to understand where I come from, but then at the same time, there’s also a, it’s also, I know it’s uncool.

I don’t really care. Um, um, I think, and like, so that doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is actually understanding my roots. Yeah. Um, understanding where my DNA comes from, where my energy comes from, right? My ancestral lineage, heritage, strengths, and traumas that have been carried forward. But then, um, it’s not always the case for a lot of people because it’s cooler to deny your roots at times.

It’s cooler to change your hair colour and go for a lot of surgery to look like something else. And, while I wouldn’t blame somebody completely because, you know, like, looks are prescribed as, you know, this is what’s cool, this is what gives you opportunities and jobs. So, that is. You know, it’s, it’s individual decisions, but we have to understand that there are bigger forces out there shaping what’s acceptable, what’s not acceptable.

And if your cultural, bits of cultural identity have become shaped to be less cool, less acceptable, less, or an impediment to your opportunities even, then it’s a lot easier to deny them, even though there’s a cost, obviously, to, I mean, I mean, there’s a cost to maybe your own identity, your own heritage.

But some people don’t really care about that anyway.

Krati: That is so true. Do you think if we did this work, if we became, if we got more in touch with, like if we explored who we are beyond the more obvious, you know, labels that we put on ourselves, doctor, , Wealthy, not wealthy, middle class, you know, whatever, beyond that, we started to explore our identity and went back to sort of our roots.

Just to, you know, nobody, you don’t have to, like, I’m very religious, but you don’t have to become as religious, religious enough to pray in the morning and pray in the evening. You just, you gotta know where you come from. Do you think if we did this kind of work, that would contribute that would strengthen our character in some ways. Do you think that that’s a possibility?

Perpetua: I think it helps you understand that you come from somewhere, and you can’t be an atom in this world because we can have loads of social companionship, loads of social events, but that doesn’t mean you’re not lonely. And knowing that you’re not an atom in this world helps. Knowing you come from somewhere helps.

Understanding that, hey, you know what, these are the sources of my very irritating behaviours helps you to forgive yourself, so that you can actually overwrite these behaviours and rewire and, and, and, And build new behaviours and habits, mindsets, patterns, personalities, right? I think that’s a good one.

It’s also really important to understand, Hey, this is where my strengths come from, this is my heritage, this is why I’m drawn to, you know, like, very beautiful things, because, you know, it’s part of my bloodline, right? Um, this is why I look like that. I think that’s great.

Krati: Yeah, and I think you know, if you take pride in your own religion and culture. I think you are more able To open with an open mind explore other religion cultures.

Perpetua: I would agree so and and be a bit more tolerant without having to say hey You know what my religion’s the best or religion is shit I mean like this is basically what a lot of arguments come down to right I am I’m right. You are wrong. Um,, and you are so stupid and ugly.

That’s, that’s normally like how childish, you know, if we were ready to break down a lot of arguments when it comes to religion or culture or politics, right? It’s about one upping each other. But when you can really understand your religion without, by and, or where you come from, your roots, your spiritual roots, without, while being able to sit or learn to sit with the fact that you have your doubts, you have your questions, you are human, then you’re able to understand that doubt is a part of the journey and forgive yourself for that. That helps you to grow as a person, that helps you to see. other religions in a different light. Um, I remember this, so every day I read the reading from this book called Luna Tao.

So, um, this guy Dong Ming Tao, he’s a Taoist master, and he writes a certain passage in accordance to the Chinese calendar’s moon of the day. So I love that. And, so even though I read the book for like five years, you know, every, every time I read that passage for the day, something different jumps out to me.

So, on one day, it says, I used to worship with many objections. Now, I worship with an even heart. Because, you know, like, the realism of religions and cultures is that there’s always going to be something ugly set in a historical context that made sense then. There’s going to be a lot of uglier people bastardizing and perverting a religion.

So it’s very easy to point out, you know, this person is crap. Or, you know, this Hindu priest did something bad. This Taoist monk did something bad, right? This person, this Catholic priest, da da da da da da, whatever you want to point out, right? But that doesn’t sully the entire religion or what you decide to take from it.

But the thing is that if we are just doing something because of, we’re not not thinking about why we’re doing something, we’re doing it because we are coerced or, you know, subtly persuaded into doing something for a social benefit, , or whatever else, then We are not sure why we’re pursuing something.

So there can be a lot of shakiness and doubt. So, you know, like the only way to get past that is to actually sit with the fact that you’re human, you have objections, you have doubts.

Krati: Yeah, that is beautiful. The way you put it, you know, I don’t want anybody listening to this to feel attacked or to feel like your choices make you bad or that your choices mean that you’re not standing up for your culture your country. This is just a general observation that I had, and you are absolutely right, there was a time when I thought wearing the cross was the coolest thing just because I saw it in American movies for no other reason.

I was a kid at the time, and my mom was so confused, she’s like, what are you doing? Why are you, like, she didn’t stop me, she’s like, by all means, if you want to wear it, wear it, but you need to have a better reason than some actor wore it on some movie, she’s like, this is so stupid. But yeah, um, you know, when I was in depression, I listened to Joel Osteen.

Not some Hindu priest, not the Hindu scriptures. Joel Osteen, who, because he’s just a very exuberant, excited person, happy person. And it helped me recover from my depression. So it’s not one religion or the other religion. It’s just, I just feel like we are sort of bypassing this this very vital, um,

Perpetua: It’s almost like take what you need and then understand why you took that so you don’t understand before you take it because there Are a lot of things that sometimes we do almost intuitively like sometimes You know, I know like I get pissed off at myself for not picking up a certain book, right? But I just know inside my body is not the right time and when it’s the right time and magically I’ll open it and then When I open it, I find what I need.

I mean, it’s just It’s nuts, okay? And when I say I find what I need, I don’t mean in a confirmation bias kind of way. I find something that makes me think, that makes me question, and I know that’s not bias, right? That’s like, you know, just what that self needs now. So sometimes, you know, we get drawn to certain scriptures, certain preaching, certain teachings, certain poetry, because religion is full of good poetry, like, say, Kahlil Gibran, right?

Like Rumi. and we get drawn to that, and we may not understand why I’m reading, say, Psalms, or what Solomon wrote, you know, Book of Psalms. Um, but When we sit down and we take what we need, we reflect on how that has nourished us, how that’s healed us, and then we can understand. And that’s all we really That’s all we really need.

You know, it’s not to say, it’s not to throw or cast our expressions upon ourselves or somebody else, but rather, you know, be grateful that you had the capacity to reach out to this thing

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: and to receive nourishment.

Krati: Yeah. You put it perfectly. You know, I sit down with so much faith in the evening. Usually my morning prayers are mantra chanting in the evening. I read scriptures. When I would sit down with my it’s like a massive tome that I read like Shiv Puran is this huge huge book I would sit down and there are chapters in it.

Like God didn’t write it a Person a human being wrote it and like you said it was written a long time back. So there would be passages in it. And in my temple, there are idols of all the gods, like, you know, different gods of my religion. I would look up to Lord Shiva. I am a Shiva devotee. That scripture is about Lord Shiva.

I would look up, I would be reading it. I would be like, are you serious? Did you allow this to be here? Like, what is this? Like, I would be so outraged. There are pieces in that scripture that would just be like, I don’t understand how this can be here. And I would question it. I would ask my mom. I would email like different people, like experts around in India.

And I would be like, well, what does this mean? What is this? This is not sitting right with me. And I think that is something you can do when you sit with faith. Like when you believe in something, when you, that I am a devoted Hindu, I’m a devoted, I’m devoted to, I love my scriptures. I think that allows you to question it.

Also that gives you the, the right to do it because you bring so much love and faith. You also, in return, get the right to question, then they

Perpetua: And I think that faith, that is hard won because you’ve allowed yourself to doubt, you’ve allowed yourself to ask those questions instead of repress your very fundamental human curiosity. Faith and if you can still have faith after

that, I think that is the most beautiful thing because that is the most genuine kind of faith that you know will always sit through you with, in your life versus that, okay, you know, I. faith, um, like doubt is a bad thing, so let me just shut that off, and let me just believe blindly, and let me just lie to myself, and that’s not gonna, that’s not solid, there’s no foundations for holding you through, so I understand what you’re saying, totally.

Krati: but I think that applies to everything else as well in life Like you just explained about the faith and then you know bringing your questions being able to just you know Raise this idea that okay this this part. I do not accept What does this mean and then coming back to you know, maintaining that faith through that process.

That is a beautiful thing I think that same thing applies to life as well when you have that kind of confidence in yourself. Like you, you said, when you do the work and you work through what it is that you need, you work through different aspects to your character. You can allow yourself to sometimes be very soft in your relationships, be very soft in the world because you know that, you know, when it comes to it, you’ve got the strength and the courage to stand yourself to push back. You don’t have

Perpetua: Yeah, you don’t have to be, you don’t have to be aggressive and fierce or, you know, be a porcupine with a lot of swords coming out of you, you know, it’s almost like you don’t have anything to prove when you know yourself enough. And I say that from experience because I’m starting, I like, with every year I grow a lot and I call it growing up, glowing up and I get to know myself a lot more.

And what I realized, you know, one of the biggest lessons in the past, say a few months was that. If somebody was born with the same set of cards, maybe they would not have made it to what I’ve done. So why do I expect myself to automatically be born with the perfect knowledge about what boundaries are? I was not programmed to have that OS at all in my social situations.

So there’s no way in hell that would happen and to understand that I’ve refined that so well till today and I will continue to Improve on that. That is actually where the magic lies. So it’s a lot about like faith, right? There’s a lot about understanding that there will be doubt that there will be times when you’re going to need improvement Because you’re not perfect, because you’re going to laugh at yourself.

So I think a lot about the Leonard Cohen song, um, in the song Hallelujah, you know, they sang it on Shrek. So there’s a line that said, Your faith was strong, but you needed proof. Um, it’s the same way as in being humans, right? It’s okay to have that part where you question yourself, or the world, or life.

And that actually helps you become stronger. If you look at and think that, Why are you the only person questioning? I rec I I guarantee you, you’re not the only special snowflake out there. Other people question as well. Those who don’t, you know, maybe they’re just too overwhelmed or it’s just easier not to.

But one day, it will hit them like a ton of bricks. I don’t want that day to happen, but it does happen. And, if you constantly have that kind of brain that’s, what I call, , you know, in the Garden of Eden. There’s a story about how Eve bit into the apple because the snake tempted her, and after that she woke up and she never saw the wall the same way again.

Well, I always say that the apple bit me. I did not have a choice in being existential or questioning a lot. And so, but over the years, what I’ve done is I’ve found other existential people as well. And I realized there’s just a bunch of us. We’re just wired that way. Um, we should not let Other people who are not wired that way make us feel like zoo exhibits because I don’t go around making somebody who’s wired completely differently feel like crap about themselves So I think it’s the same kind of decency and grace that we should give to other members of the human race

Krati: Yes. So true. You know, it’s just a, I don’t get to comment on what is happening in other countries since I don’t live there day to day. But what I will say about in India, I see so much struggle happening. You know, everything that you’ve just said and said so beautifully and like there’s so much grace, the way you just said it, I think you’ve given permission.

To a lot of the listeners out there to lean into that struggle. Cause I see a lot of Indians struggling where they want to know, they want to go back to their roots. They want to get, you know, they want to read their scriptures. They want to talk about it, but they also don’t want to get labeled. Like automatically, if you love your religion too much, it means you hate all the other religions.

That’s not true. Or if you love your country too much, then somebody needs to come at you and remind you that, you know what, your country’s fucked in ways too.

So that’s not true. So I see the struggle happening in India. I don’t know if it’s happening everywhere because I get my knowledge from Other podcasts and youtubes and my friends are always at pain at remote to remind me especially my american friends.

It’s not that bad You know, don’t judge Countries based on what you see on youtube, which is actually very correct. It’s very true. You shouldn’t so i’ll just speak to Uh what I see here in india. I see that struggle happening um, so I would just want them what you just the way you packaged it the way you Sort of put that message out there.

It’s beautiful and I would want them to take that as permission to lean into that struggle and let it go, you know, and especially to women because I see a lot of that struggle happening here where women want to be, you know, selectively submissive in relationships, selectively dominant in relationships.

They want to take charge in some ways, but in some other ways they want to let their partner take charge, like, but then they’re so afraid that they’re going to get judged for it. And I, I, they, or they get labeled codependent, you know, we’re going to talk about that today. So I think, I don’t like that. I don’t like people limiting themselves because of what they think the perception of the rest of the world will be. Because you know what? You,

Perpetua: Yeah,

Krati: not the ones who have to live with the consequences of your choices.

Perpetua: yeah, I mean fear of a label is always going to be there and you know what I’m trying to say here is be aware that you’re going to have to sit with that until it stops bugging you It’s like if I’m in a situation that causes me a lot of anxiety and it’s a situation I need to be in so what I can do is I can keep sitting a situation like that and learn to regulate my body, my nervous system towards getting used to it so that my body doesn’t freak out insanely.

It doesn’t mean I’m going to enjoy some of the situations. Like, I may never enjoy a hot, stuffy bus. Right? I mean, who does? I may never like a hot, stuffy train in the middle of winter in England. It’s awful. Okay? And I’m not trying to make myself like a dirty toilet. Yeah? Let’s get that clear. Okay? But then I can habituate my nervous system to tolerate it.

You know, in the same way, uh, you will learn to habituate your body and your brain to tolerate and then slowly, the noise of people’s judgments becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. But you have to start somewhere. But of course, you know, having the permission is very different. Because having the permission is almost like you are taking away this thing that sucks and leaks your energy in drips and draps.

And that is exhausting when you keep accumulating. Because, you know, like, there are things that I do intuitively that I know are right. Um, and over time, you know, like after four or five years, the results consistently show that I’m in the right direction. But because the social diktat, I call it the social diktat, is so loud in my ear, or in my head.

I’m aware, so I doubt, I second guess, I fight myself, and this doubt, despite me walking in the right direction, this doubt takes away a lot of my energy, that maybe I don’t need that. So no, if I were to give my younger self a lesson, looking back in the last five years, it would be permission. Trust your instincts, trust your gut, because you build your life in a way that you can trust yourself, right?

So, in the same way, but you know, sometimes it’s hard, it’s hard to stop that. So be aware of how your energy is leaking.

Krati: Yeah. Again, this is why I appreciate you so much. You bring such compassion to even the most difficult, uh,, ideas, difficult discussions out there. , yeah. So I, I thank you for that. , that’s important. The other aspect of this whole discussion, a very large topic that looms here when you sort of talk about confidence, you talk about relationships, you talk about taking pride in your identity, boundaries, et cetera, et cetera, is codependency. Um, we see a lot of discussion happening around that. I want to, I want to start from scratch because even I don’t understand it completely.

My right away when you say the term codependency, the idea that pops into my head is of women who are clingy and needy and who are incapable of standing on their own. And I know that that’s not it. So please let’s talk about codependency and the misconceptions that people have about it.

Perpetua: So we have to first understand the roots as with anything when it comes to whatever labels that we’re giving, you know, labels are useful, let’s get that clear, okay, because it helps us understand, helps us to organize our experiences and helps us to realize we’re not alone. That’s a way out. So I like labels.

Okay, um, let’s get that clear first. So codependency started in the wake of a lot of developments about treating addiction. So we will always think about how what’s When somebody is an addict, there will always be somebody else who tends to be enabling their behaviors such as, okay You’re ill because you’ve drunk too much.

Let me call in sick for you. Let me lie to your boss for you Let me make excuses for you Let me give you extra money, otherwise you’re going to starve even though you just spent or because you just spent all your money on whatever substance of choice that you’ve had. Right? And so and this people would Often be seen as co dependent because they were not doing this from just on the state of let me help you even though it’s short term help rather than a long term help. It was also because their sense of self, sense of worth was dependent on their relationship hence the word co dependent

So

Krati: people who enable them are the

Perpetua: yes, are the co dependents?

Yes. Yeah So basically it’s like my sense of worth my sense of self has no place on its own. I’m only as good as how you see me as what I do for you. So, over time, you know, and, and, you know, as the literature and the awareness on narcissism, on narcissistic relationships came up, that would be, say, 2016 to 2018, 2019 kind of time, when, you know, it was starting to get popular, people were starting to, get aware that, oh my god, this is my relationship, or, oh my god, this was my relationship, right?

Then, , the term co dependent started getting a bit more traction again, because it was found that women or men in such narcissistic relationships being abused tended to be co dependent. And there will also be a backlash, because women or men were also asking, like, some of them will be asking, hey, you know what, like, I do pretty well at work, I got my head sorted, I got my life sorted, how am I this so called dependent, needy person.

I may have friends, I may have a career, I may have a hobby, I’m a responsible person with a lot of accomplishments. So how on earth can I be seen as a needy dependent person? So last, um, Q4, 2024 Q4, that was when Terry Cole came out with a new book called Too Much, which is about high functioning codependents.

And what she wrote was that in this In her practice, as she was seeing her clients, what she realized is her clients were another version of codependency, what she called high functioning codependency, where basically they tend to over give and be over involved in other people’s feelings, situations, behaviors, whatever else.

They were giving and giving at their own expense. And sometimes, it would be because they had this belief that if they fix other people’s problems, their own world would become peaceful. Or they knew how to fix somebody else’s problems. Or, you know, it’s a good distraction from their own problems, because you could be incredibly accomplished, or you could have a good life on paper, but there are some things inside you that are not exactly at peace.

There are some things that could be healed, that could be smoothed over by looking deeply at that, and building what I would call a new OS. A new system, a new rules of engagement of the world.

Krati: Okay. But here’s the deal. Now, um, high functioning codependent people who have their shit together at work, people who may be performing wonderfully at work, you know, everything we talked about up to this point about how we package ourselves and how we present ourselves, you know, we do, whether we want to or not, even you and I, to some extent, measure ourselves in terms of our accomplishments. We, if we are excelling, we think everything’s good, everything’s okay. We’ve talked about confidence and the one thing that we have talked about a lot up to this point is how we need to get in touch with different aspects of our identity.

Perpetua: hmm.

Mm hmm.

Krati: And sit with it, figured it out. And that would help us be more confident.

We know who we are. So now for a person who is a high functioning codependent, this is, isn’t it contradicting information where they’re in one aspect of the life they’re, they’re doing just fine. And then perhaps in another aspect of that, how do you figure out that? How do you see it for yourself? That that’s sort of, what would you call it? The dissonance, that sort of. Contradictory thing thing that is happening here.

Perpetua: I think there’s a gulf, there’s a really big gulf that you know is presenting this false advertising. So, let’s say there’s this, um, there’s this saying in one Chinese language called one dialect called called Looks good to, looks good, but not nice to

eat.

Krati: right. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Perpetua: And so if your life becomes so much of that, then I think that’s a sign. So, you know, you could be a HFC, uh, high functioning codependent and you could have a lot of accomplishments. You could measure yourself up by that, but you could also be scared to shine. So you’re shining at work, but then in your private life, you don’t dare to tell people about that.

And it’s not even in, uh, like this, like, okay. So when I’m out with a bunch of people, acquaintances, I don’t bother talking about my achievements or my accolades or whatever else right because it’s not relevant,

Krati: right?

Perpetua: I’m not there to toot my horn 24 sevens a bit insane. Okay, so that’s a different thing in my head, right?

but but you know like some people would hide their accomplishments because they are completely afraid of shining because somebody else will be resentful, angry or compete with then they’ll be conflict. So you’re doing that to keep the peace. So, it’s almost like they don’t believe their permission to shine.

Like, you know, I’ve had clients who would tell me, oh, you know, my husband has no idea about all the stuff that I do at work and the bonus I’m getting. Because if he did, he’ll be really angry, he’ll be really insecure, and I’m trying to protect him from feeling insecure.

Krati: Right. Got it. I have, this is so like, as soon as you described it in my head, I can, I can very quickly recall so many stories on Reddit, uh, articles in different publications, for Women’s Magazine. So many documentaries that I know of that are all about very high powered women who were suffering domestic violence, who were suffering, although maybe that’s going too far, I don’t know but who were in abusive relationships where they were being put down at home while they were like a company’s head and making profits. But they would come home to, abuse and insults and they will take it.

Perpetua: Mm-hmm .Mm-hmm .

And.

Krati: you think about it, that’s crazy.

Perpetua: That’s actually not that insane because, um, narcissists tend to, or basically your dark personality types like your psychopaths, your sociopaths and your Machiavellians, they tend to prey on victims who are successful. Victims who will make them look like trophies but at the flip side, it will also make them feel like crap.

But it’s okay, even if their partner’s achievements make them feel like crap. Because they have a way of making them, their partners, feel like crap. And they need to feel, they need to hurt somebody because the sadism is incredibly high in a dark personality type. So, I specialize in helping women and men who are highly accomplished professionals, um, ultra high level individuals from leaving such relationships strategically and permanently.

And it can be really complicated because there’s so much control, there’s so much trauma involved. There are, like, a lot of assets that are entangled together. And these women also need to be incredibly discreet about it because they have got good jobs going on and it’s great because that helps them.

It’s like one thing that they know is going right in their lives, that when they rebuild their lives, that’s already there for them.

Krati: This is a little scary, you know, um, that there, there are people out there who may be stuck in situations of that, of that sort. If somebody listening to this right now is beginning to sort of relate to the information you’re sharing, is there like some sort of self assessment that you can run?

Because I feel like a lot of people who are in those situations, even as you are describing this to them, They don’t, like, right away, they don’t see themselves as part of it, like, because they’ve justified it so much,

Perpetua: of course. So, one thing I’ve found that really scary is that in, in most of human life, our brains are wired to remember negative things, and our brains are wired to avert losses. But in this toxic relationships, this high control relationships, what I found is the brain tends to only remember the positive things, and it tends to gloss away everything else.

So that’s almost a reversal of negativity bias. And that keeps a person in these relationships. They will tell themselves, it’s not that bad. They will look for the finest minutiae that might distinguish a situation from somebody else’s to tell them that it’s okay. And, yes, these thousand stories I may have read are domestic violence, are narcissism, are personality disorders, but not me.

These people can change. Cannot change. My situation, yeah, we can change. One more time. That’s because human beings are legendarily bad at quitting bad situations. So whether you put them in a lab, on a poker table, or a bad relationship, we are just terrible at exiting. We are like this person that says one more, one more time.

They become superstitious, a bad kind of superstitious, okay? And we also tell ourselves that this is special. It is different and because of that, we sabotage ourselves further. So, for instance, for some women in such relationships, because, you know, those women are highly functioning in their work, right?

And they’re very responsible, you know, they’re probably taking care of their kids, for their parents, for their friends, and everything else. They are picking up the slack in charity work, in all sorts of social situations. So, it’s just like, they’re strong type, that’s, adrenaline’s what’s keeping them going, right?

So, in those situations, they will just be giving more and more and more, because they are high empathy. And they’re also high in diligence. So you put that together, high empathy for somebody else, not themselves, and high diligence for somebody else, and not themselves. Bam! They’re gonna work super hard for the relationship.

So it takes a lot of women and men quite some time to clock that, Oh my god, I am in a relationship like that, and to, Oh my god, I need to leave. Or, Oh my god, I’ve got the strength to leave now. It’s, it takes a long time, because when you are being abused, what happens is, You tend to experience trauma and trauma changes your nervous system so that your nervous system becomes blunted during normal times.

Instead, it wakes up during times of abuse, during the times of trauma, and it mistakes that for passion. And your abuser will be telling you, Oh, it must be love. You think it must be love. Love is hard. Love is difficult. And you know, all this ups and downs that we’re having, this is why we’re meant to be together.

Put somebody who is post an abuse episode who is already deeply traumatized and doesn’t have a lot of bandwidth to think clearly. Put them in a situation like that, they’re highly suggestible. And with your nervous system waking up during these abuse situations, these abuse episodes, you’re going to believe it’s love.

And of course, you’re too tired to escape, so what do you do? You adapt. You adapt to one more day.

Krati: That is, oh my god. We have seen this, actually, you know? I thought, when we started discussing it, I thought this is some, like, these are very, like, extreme cases, but it’s actually fairly common.

Perpetua: It is very

Krati: Yeah. I hate to share this, but, the last relationship that I was in, I, I was never a very good person to be in a romantic relationship with.

I will say that outright. I’m very solitary person. So even though I’m trying very hard to be present, to be happy with someone, I’m just, I’m waiting for them to leave. And when, well, the better thing is to do, the more mature thing to do is to say that please leave. I don’t, I’m not present in this relationship anymore.

You deserve better. I didn’t do that. This was a long time back. Thankfully, I just don’t do that anymore. But I remember that guy, wonderful, beautiful human being refusing to leave. Like I became so rude. I wouldn’t pick up calls. I wouldn’t show up on time. I was stingy with compliments. Like I wouldn’t even say thank you when I should have and

Perpetua: So you’re doing things to drive him away.

Krati: I mean, I just, every time I think about it, there is just this, I’m flooded with self loathing that I did that, but I did do it.

Uh, but the guy wouldn’t leave. A very accomplished, very successful, wonderful man. He just wouldn’t leave. Cause he had this and then eventually I reached my breaking point. I’m like, what the fuck is going on? Why would you put up with this kind of crappy behavior? And he’s like, we can figure this out. We can do this.

And like, what is, I’m not a project. What do you mean we can do this? But he was so confident, like he had such little failure in his life that he refused to believe that whatever is broken in my brain, he can’t fix it. Like,

Perpetua: Okay. Yeah, let me let me just pause you for okay I know I know like you feel guilty about doing what you did I would have felt guilty if that was what I did too and with the lens on my current self, right? I don’t think there’s something broken your brain. I think you just got different needs for alone time and yeah, so let’s

Krati: it was after that, like, that was the last breakup. I like, that was the last. I have been on dates after that. Very casual dates, no relationship. That was like the last one I did. But it was after that that I started saying to my mom mostly that, you know, mom, some people are really not meant to be married.

Some people are really not meant for relationships. They’re, you know, it’s best that they stay alone. So I was like, this is me. Uh, but I don’t know. I don’t know. This is a, an area of my life where I don’t invest much energy to work through it. Um, but that just came to me Came screaming back to me as we were talking about this that this amazing person who so clearly deserved better Uh, like throughout that time while I was being an ass, he was not even rude to me Like he wasn’t even abrupt that poised of a gentleman.

He’s still putting up with my shit I was like, maybe maybe that’s what it was like. He was refusing to leave because he couldn’t fathom the idea of not being able to figure something out, not being able to fix something, you know?

Perpetua: Mm hmm. Mm hmm Well, I mean like but that then again, right like in a narcissistic relationship What happens is that earlier on they love bomb the victims so it becomes so beautiful. So amazing You’re the only person who understands me. It’s us against the world. Let’s run away They spend so much time that the victim thinks that it’s very affect us a lot of affection, but actually it’s not because You are bombarded.

You don’t have time to think for yourself. You don’t have space to think for yourself. That’s the first step in getting your guest lit. And because you’ve already had this template of beautiful relationship, beautiful relationship experiences to begin with, that becomes your idea that, okay, when something bad happens, we can get back to how it first started.

That beautiful start. Those awesome experiences, because I’m not crazy, it actually happened, and if this is no longer happening, and he’s always also blaming me at times, then it has to be my fault. So I’m gonna have to work harder and harder to prove it’s not my fault. Can you see?

Krati: Yes.

Perpetua: There’s something that really sinister going on in this dance.

Krati: Yeah, yeah. You know, we focus more on romantic relationships, but this happens a lot in family setups as well. And then that means we’re dealing with blood relatives and it could be your parents as well. It could be a sibling. We don’t want to give these people up. We don’t want to push them out of our lives.

Is there a way to have a healthier relationship with people who create that sort of equation with you?

Perpetua: So there’s some people who expect you to just give and give and give and show up, and if you’re doing it and resenting what you’re doing, And it’s time for you to ask yourself, can I stop? Can I dial back? Right? It’s sometimes, you know, people don’t, okay. So we’re talking about like some family members who may be expecting a lot or behaving badly, but not intentionally, because if I keep showing up and I keep smiling at you, how does somebody know that’s a problem? Right?

So let’s start with that to begin with. Let’s not assume that everybody’s a toxic person. So it’s asking, can you do this on your own? Or let’s say somebody keeps. You know, um, asking you for advice, but going into the victim spiral. Maybe they’re not interested in advice, but you can ask them Oh, what do you want right now?

Do you want advice? Do you want a hug? Do you want a listening ear? Some people just want a listening ear or do you want somebody or if you’re blunt enough and close enough? Do you want somebody to sit with you and and and just hear your gripes and tell you how everything’s not gonna work? Some people really want that so, you know, it’s things like that And then if you’re over giving ask yourself why on earth are you over giving?

Do you think that this person? is going to collapse without you. And sometimes this person is completely able bodied. They might take a bit more time to figure something out, and if you put support systems in place, they can figure it out. But maybe it’s you handicapping somebody else. Have you ever thought about that?

Krati: Right.

Perpetua: Or that maybe you like to fill your time up with doing all these different type projects. Yeah, I know people are not projects, but sometimes we conflict people with projects. Okay, so maybe you’re spending all this time, you’re electing to spend all this time. Solving other people’s problems, even when problems do not exist.

Maybe this person doesn’t even care about having a healthy meal, so why are you cooking and slaving away, meal prepping for this person when they don’t even care or don’t even eat it? And then you get angry and resentful. So you have to ask yourself, why on earth are you doing this? Why on earth are you over functioning?

Are you giving unsolicited advice or just showing up too much for other people?

Krati: Right. Okay, if somebody’s right now like there’s a light bulb going on and they’re like, yes, I do this. This is me How do they figure out why they’re why like you said you have to figure out the why here like any strategies any techniques They can use without having to go to a professional if they’re not yet ready for it.

Perpetua: So the question would be, how does doing all those things distract you? What does this distract you from? I mean, we all have got things that we like to do that distracts us. So for instance, sometimes when I don’t want to do my work, I’ll just game a lot. I’ll just watch 10 episodes of Big Bang Theory because it distracts me from the pain of switching gears to actually sit down and do my work.

But once I sit down, it’s a different matter, right? I’m bad at switching gears, right? So I understand the mechanism in place. For a lot of over functionists, especially when it comes to family or relationship dynamics, generally speaking, it’s distracting them from their own pain, okay? Maybe it’s because as a child, they were not seen, they were ignored, they were neglected.

So they feel like if they keep showing up, they keep getting praised, they keep, someone in the family system sees, Oh, you are so hardworking. They feel good about themselves. There tends to be somewhere, you know, where the record is, you know, the record, the vinyl is stuck. And it just keeps going, and you’ve got to figure out where on earth that is.

So a lot of times it’s a distraction from something that is painful. It’s a way of us making a do over. But it’s not a clever do over, because we are not doing it consciously. So, for instance, if I want to be seen by someone, I should be able to be seen by myself. Then I should look at myself, like, am I acknowledging what I’ve done in my life?

Am I able to acknowledge not just my accomplishments, Am I able to think that I’m a good person or I’m a decent person, I’m a worthy person separate from my accomplishments. That even if I’m going through a strange or a quieter, badder period in my life, am I able to show up to somebody who I care about and not feel ashamed or defective.

Krati: , right. It’s, humans are complex, and you are, as you are, you know, describing this, I am very aware, because I’ve read, like, on Reddit, I’ve spoken to the clients that I’ve had, the stories that people spin for themselves. I mean, you know, I describe my, um, equation with my last, like, the last breakup, I had a clearly very shitty situation, and clearly very selfish, uh, way for me to behave.

But I also know that when it comes to my family, my parents, my sibling, I would never, I’m always there for them. I always show up, I do everything, but I would never expect them to be there for me, perhaps because, you know, growing up, I thought like my brother got all the attention, but you know what? I always told myself that I’m, I don’t need help. My brother does. He.

Perpetua: There we go! That’s a sign that when we, as women, when we become hyper independent, we find it so hard to receive. Almost like it’s icky, and we have to prove, over prove about how independent and how functional we are. But actually, you know, it’s so, like, yes, you know, I have no doubts that you can do your work, right?

Like, just like, I have no doubts in my ability to go through life, or do well in life. If you just sat back one day, and just let someone do something for you, start to realize, oh my god, this is what I’ve been missing out on. So typically, I’ll give you a very easy example. So typically, I tend to be the person ordering at restaurants because everybody makes me order at restaurants because they think I know food a lot.

Yes, it’s true, I eat a lot. And so, okay, I’m very happy to do that. Okay, it’s quite fun. But one day I was at a restaurant and I had a bunch of friends who, two of them are really good at food as well. And just like, you guys order. And I just sat down there. I was like, oh my god, this feels so good. I don’t want to do this again.

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: And you know, it can be something like, you know, I tell you the restaurant because it feels like such a small situation, but it taught me a little bit about how you don’t know how heavy something is until it’s taken away from you. So imagine if this was in your own home situation, because you know, we can give bits of energy here and there, but they add up.

Resentment can also add up. This may not be resentment about you doing the thing, but resentment about why you, why you have to, why your brother has to be there. Not the less functional one and why you have to be the hyper functioning one, even if being over functioning is your pride and your joy, or your badge of honor.

It’s a complicated thing. You know, like, just like we were talking just now about women and receiving, right? Being soft. And, there’s also another lesson that I’ve learned in the past few years, right? Because typically being hyper independent means I need to do everything on my own. I cannot accept favors I need to prove my worth over and over again.

If you give me a favor, I’m gonna pay you back five times I mean, that’s nuts, right? There’s no way to be in, right? And then, you know, as women sometimes, you know, we ask ourselves Why is it that this man feels so emasculated by us? Why are we always attracting men who take and take and take and take and take, right?

So the question is because you’re putting yourself out there as somebody who’s hyper independent, over giving, over trying to prove yourself, and of course you’re gonna, and you’re pushing away the good people, the kind people, and of course you’re going to attract the parasites.

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: I mean, it’s really a dynamic kind of situation.

So how do you show up for yourself? So to even sit back and, you know, think about, you know what, maybe it’s biology that men like to provide, women like to receive. I can be very, um, Bossy and my work because it’s a take charge thing but I can at home I can lay down and let people do things for me. Actually, it’s quite nice and actually it serves a relationship. So why not as long as I’m doing it ethically and with integrity, right?

But sometimes it’s able the ability to sit back and just pull aside this Different little rigid boxes that we put ourselves in and explore different options. Like, you know, how does this Serve my friendship with my friend, right? So if I’m always the one who is being hyper masculine, hyper in charge not being able to let them speak then does it really serve my friendship? maybe not

Krati: And you know, it, it makes sense why, like, I am so, very responsible in my home situation where I’m always there and then I’m such a shitty girlfriend, you know, cause I think,

Perpetua: because you’re giving all your energy away yeah and then, it damages a different area of your life.

Krati: This is, like, very, you know, these are a lot of revelations here and I’m going to have to journal about it. So, I think this makes sense because I do know a lot of people get whiplash and I, uh, hear so many people share this, that I don’t understand what happens to me when I am, uh, doing this, like, I’m handling this particular area of my life and I’m really not this person. I wonder if that’s what’s going on.

Like, you’re compensating for being extra in one area and then barely being able to perform in another area.

Perpetua: Well, it’s like By the time you finish your, you finish your interactions with your family, or you’re even thinking about that, because your brain, when your brain virtualizes, it doesn’t know the difference between actually being there and not being there. Right? So your battery is just gone. So your battery is gone?

In a romantic situation, where, how can you even show up?

Krati: do you think that’s, like, that’s codependency, like, that’s an aspect to codependency? Because could that go that far? Because I feel like that’s more insidious and that’s more, to a larger extent hijacks how a relationship plays out in your life. So, I wouldn’t

Perpetua: immediately run to call something codependent. I would first ask about, how are you showing up? Is like, what’s the context in which you’re showing up? Because, like say, you know, if I’m always showing up to my work half dead, then I’m not gonna give good quality. So it doesn’t tell anything about my, my quality of work, apart from the fact that I’m doing it from a shitty battery.

Krati: Yes.

Perpetua: Yeah, so I’m likely to make mistakes, I’m likely to be slower, I’m likely to be inefficient, and ineffective. I’m likely to create more messes. That’s, that’s going to, the probability of all that is going to be a lot higher. So that’s not representative of maybe who I am if I showed up with full battery, or even just 75%, 80 percent battery, right?

And I was thoughtful enough, or I developed, you know, like new systems of, of, of doing my work better. So in the same way, you know, first in your case, I would imagine it would be to diagnose and troubleshoot what is causing you to show up depleted. And when you can show up from a fuller version of yourself, and you’re still like that, then maybe it’s time to look deeper. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, let’s not jump to call you codependent or

Krati: Yeah. Yeah.

I’ve seen so many unhealthy marriages my entire life as a little kid I’ve been around such unhealthy relationships that I’m also very aware of just how bad and nasty it can get when it is unhealthy and by nasty and unhealthy I don’t mean like violence I’ve never seen violence in my life but I’ve seen people who have just accepted things.

Perpetua: Yeah.

Krati: They’ve just given in to the fact that this person will never show up for me. This person will never be in my corner or I will always have to do everything for this person. And that scares me so much.

Perpetua: Mm-hmm

Krati: What is that like, like to sort of shut down pieces of yourself

Perpetua: I mean, it depends on how a person chooses their marriage or relationship to be right? For some people, that’s a unwritten, unspoken contract that I show up, I provide. That’s all you need to do. You bear the children, you raise the children, da, da, da, da, da. Right? Some people, you know like, okay, this marriage is.

I will provide this, whatever I do outside of marriage is none of your business. So, there’s a lot of different ways in which marriage are negotiated, whether openly or not. And, if you choose to be, continue in an interaction or a dalliance like that, that’s partly on you, but also, there’s also, you have to think about your culture, your context, right?

In some cultures, exiting a marriage is hard. Um, and, In some cultures, you know, you get frowned upon, the social stigma is hard, the divorce procedures are hard, and if, let’s say, let’s say you’re in your 60s, right, you’ve never worked for years and years and years, and then you finally realize, oh my god, this is awful, and there’s other worlds out there, because in your 60s, you are suddenly plugged into the wonderful world of the internet, where you see everybody’s different lives, right, everybody’s on show there, so you, so you start to see options and possibilities for yourself, and then, How do you actually leave?

How do you think about, where are you going to get your food, where are you going to get your shelter, where are you going to get your job? I mean, it’s a very complicated thing to think about, right? And like, oh, you wonder, like, even if you have adult children who love you, um, would they forgive you for doing that, right?

Who would actually understand? I mean, it’s very hard to cast judgment on people’s lives or why they stay or why they go, but it’s hard. I mean, like, being human is hard.

Krati: Yeah. That’s heartbreaking. That makes me so sad. You know, uh, we were watching on the news a few days back, a couple of months back, I think, where they were talking about, you know, in India also it for the longest time. People would not get divorced like getting divorced was such a horrible thing. It would ruin your reputation But that’s not the case anymore Like more and more people are waking up to the fact that dude I don’t want to be with this person and they’re you know taking getting a divorce So it was on the news some 50 year old couple, both were over 50. They were getting a divorce my mom this she said this thing that you know, I couldn’t like I couldn’t get Forget it.

She’s like they’re in their 50s. They don’t want to be with each other. They can just take separate rooms in the house. Why do they have to get divorced and blow everything up? I’m like, what do you mean? I mean your life is not over when you’re 50.

For a lot

Perpetua: Well, logistics, reputation, you know, and also your belief. Yeah. Some people believe life is over at 50. Some people don’t. I mean, like, so, you know, so, the reason why I know so much, so intimately about toxic relationships is because I was with one until I left at 30. Right? I didn’t know that I was with a narcissist or psychopath.

And it was scary because you know, you just, you just don’t know. It breaks you down slowly and slowly, but I know that it was easier for me to leave at 30 because I had enough resources. I built myself up and I was cunning enough. Okay. I was cunning enough to build that up. Right. Um, and, and, and the like, you know, and I, and I was young enough at that point.

I mean, I still, I look younger than I ever did, but you know, at that point I was still young enough and I had enough energy. Right. But I know that, let’s say if that happened to me at 50, right, with that guy, and I was 50, and I just realized I would’ve been even more tired because at that point I was only with him for X number of years.

If I add in and then 20 years , I’ll be broken for an extra 20 of years, I’ll be a zombie. So, you know, it’s a, it’s a big thing to say that, that, um, like it’s, you can start over at any age again. Yes, you can. The stakes are different. The way your head sees life is very, very different. Like, even the logistics of who’s going to live where, right, who’s going to plan, and it’s just tiring.

And if you’ve got a zillion things in life to worry about, you don’t want to add that extra thing in your, to your life, to your plate. So, and most people don’t understand about the effects of your environment on your health, right? Or most people don’t even care about your health to begin with, right? So, if you are around somebody who is toxic or ambivalent, it’s, it’s terrible for your blood pressure, um, your heart health.

But most of us have no idea. So we just think, it’s okay, you know, how bad can it be? I got a roof over my head. But actually that’s not true. But most of us have no idea. So what can we do then?

Krati: Yeah. I think it also has a lot Like, my mom’s reaction was very, like, typical Indian lady’s reaction. But I think it also has a lot to do with just how much pain she has seen in her life. So, she, like, she became an adult when she was eight years old. And she’s been through so much struggle and pain that to her having like a husband who doesn’t love you or isn’t fully present it doesn’t seem like that much of

because I remember like uh I was sitting with this person who was reading like my birth chart and he said this very funny thing and I’m like my mom is not that emotionally aware so I have to remember that I can’t take offense at a lot of the things she says and she’s like your mother’s Uh, this sign is very strong, people like that, their threshold is very high.

So when you say you are feeling depressed, to her it’s nonsense, like depression, something like depression doesn’t exist. I’m like, well, that’s fucked up, but I get it.

Perpetua: Yep.

Krati: And yeah, I wonder how many of these cases that continue to on for so long, it’s just that, that you have known so much worse that what you’re facing, you don’t even recognize just how dangerous and bad it is for you.

Perpetua: Yeah I mean like you get habitual, I mean in a toxic relationship, you get habituated to that, right? So you’re not even aware of how bad it is. So I remember like , before I left, I had gone to, one of my friends said you have to go to the police shelter and get a risk assessment done because that will help your case if you ever need that.

So I was just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. So I walked into the police, , shelter and I got uh, an assessment, right? And I played down all my answers. And then the woman looked at me, she said, you got to leave really soon. And I was like, why? And she said, your scores indicate that you’re at medium risk of severe harm or homicide.

And I jumped. I was like, whoa, how had I been so, so, so, like, numb to the fact that I was in such danger? And that was, like, the biggest wake up call. I had to accelerate everything. But the thing is that we have no idea when we just learn to tolerate.

Krati: Yeah. Oh my God. That’s crazy. Um, to anyone listening, if they feel like that sense of urgency to do this work, cause we’ve unpacked a lot in this conversation. What are some like strategies that you would recommend? What is some work that they can do to start figuring out? Their life themselves, who they are, their identity, that sort of thing?

Perpetua: So, one of the first things I’ll say that is a universal thing, like drinking water and moving, would be emotional regulation. So being able to face your emotions without pretending you love them all or you hate them all, okay? It’s just like naming your emotions as a fact. Today, I’m feeling anxious. Today, I’m feeling anxious and sad.

Today, I’m feeling anxious and happy at the same time. Okay, whatever combination you have, name it. Take three deep breaths to reset your brain and then go about your day. Okay, the reset button is really important. Because it gives you that pause in which you can choose to take a new action and wire new pathways in your brain.

So while some people can tell me, you know, I’ve been told, Oh, you know, you say you have your coffee, almond croissant, and all is good. I say, Nope, I never said I have my coffee, almond croissant, all is good. I’m saying, I have my coffee, almond croissant, I take a pause, I take a breath, and then I choose to do something good for myself.

That is the difference. Okay? You have to learn to emotionally regulate yourself. Otherwise, your brain will keep making you do stupid decisions because your brain doesn’t care about you doing well. Your brain just wants you to survive. So emotional regulation will be the top thing in my toolkit. Or my makeup box.

Whatever you want to call that. Okay, do that as many times as you can in between activities like after I finish this session with you I will close my laptop and I’m going to breathe and I’m gonna do my next thing and I’ll breathe again Okay, it’s like wiping a table clean. Okay, so that’s really important and other things ask yourself what reconnects you to joy So, you know, you don’t have to look for what other people prescribe you some people like exciting, you know activities like like adventure daredevil stuff Some people like to walk, some people like to garden, some people like to hug a stray cat, whatever it is.

Now think about what used to light you up when you were a child. Maybe it’s a book and you’ve stopped reading for some time for whatever reason. No judgment. I don’t care how you stopped. All I care is that you’re starting that again. You allow yourself to go back into that. You even schedule that into your calendar to, because a habit when you’re first starting it is going to be weird.

It’s going to be hard. So do that, okay? And I’ll ask you, like, if you do like the person you see in the mirror, okay, because much as we call it vanity or vapidity, it’s not. Sometimes the way you look is also an indicator of health. So if you don’t like what you look in the mirror because time has caused us all to decay, that’s not just one thing, okay, maybe it’s also your habits.

So what can you do that’s different? Like, you know, I’ve worked with women, super successful women, who have been in such horrible relationships that, you know, I say, what’s one thing you can do to claim yourself? And say, could you put lip balm on? Because they don’t put lip balm on anymore. And lip balm is just self care, right?

It’s just, you know, moisturizing your lips. Because if your lips are dry, it’s uncomfortable. It’s painful, right? And it takes away your energy as well. So maybe we put on some lip balm today. Maybe next week we put on some lip gloss or some lipstick. Because it’s not completely contrary to what you used to do.

It’s just something that you’re reclaiming. Maybe you’ll stop wearing the clothes that you like. Okay, maybe let’s walk a little bit so you fit into the dress, you know, never underestimate the power of being vain and vapid. That’s what I always tell everybody Especially if you have already accomplished a lot in your life.

You have nothing to prove about, you know, you being smart by making yourself dowdy Okay, so that’s another thing I would say to reclaim yourself bit by bit do things that make you respect yourself and then do an audit of the people in your life. Is there a house of mirrors where are there people who make you feel like crap?

Are there people who make you feel like it’s not safe for you to shine and by I say shine I don’t mean like, you know brag about yourself, but rather even just know that you’ve done something good You know be able to share that you’ve done something good Or have something exciting in your life. Are these people secretly competing with you?

Do you actually pick up on hostility? If you do, then these people are not safe. So, if you have people like that who are gaslighting you, treating you like a zoo exhibit, you know, treating you like some fucking weirdo, then these are people that, as, if, if, they show you how, who they are, consistently, then it’s time for you to listen to the signs, and kick them out of your life, distance yourself, you know, maybe stay in touch but out of reach, or completely stay out of touch.

You choose the parameters of engagement. You know, these voices in your head are not just your own voice. They tend to be the voices of the bullies in your past, the bad people, the people who make you feel like crap because they need to feel good about themselves. So, if you have, if you’re an over functioning person, chances are you have some of these energy leeches in your life.

So, if you just clear that away, trying, you know, don’t feel, you will feel guilty. But don’t put too much stock in that guilt because you are allowed to outgrow people, you know Maybe they served a version of you in a certain place and time and that’s okay You can thank them for that experience, but it doesn’t oblige you to bring them forward So if you can do all this small little things day by day Compound interest is going to work in your favor.

It’s not going to be super fast Okay, I promise you

Krati: yeah, but it’s

Perpetua: going to help you over time.

Krati: Just thinking about anybody who’s going through that, it really, it breaks your heart, you know?

Hopefully, things will be different this year, you know?

Okay.

Perpetua: the only thing, the only way things will be different, I mean, like, besides a bit of luck, right, is also what you

Krati: do.

Yeah. Yeah, I was just reading something on Pinterest that day. It said something like, , to, if you do the same things this year, it’s not a

Perpetua: new year,

Mm hmm.

Krati: it’s just another year.

Perpetua: Or what did Einstein say, right? Stupidity is doing the

Krati: same thing.

Perpetua: a different

Krati: Yeah. Expecting a different outcome. Yes, that is so true. Okay. Um, for any final wisdom, any like message you want to put out there, anything you want to share, anything you want to plug for our listeners before we stop recording. Okay.

Perpetua: I would say that because we are exactly at a new year, and to me this is not exactly the new year because Chinese New Year is my real new year. So this is like the dress rehearsal, right? So it’s a practice. Um, so, you know, you’ve got a lot of time to establish what you want for this new year because you know, whatever in between zones that we have, don’t just call them a social construct.

Don’t tear them down that way. I think there are valuable opportunities that you can use to leverage the energy, and create a new beginning, a new chapter for yourself. You know, like, even if the game isn’t rigged in your favor yet, you can rig it to your favor. It’s one thing to feel helpless, and another thing to do something about it.

Krati: Yes. Beautiful, beautiful, amazing. And I’ll just say, you know, god knows how to make up for lost time. So,

Perpetua: Oh, totally, yeah.

Krati: worry, just do your best

Perpetua: And, and you will also make up for your own lost time because I always believed your past can pay dividends for you. You know, all the wisdom that you’ve had. Your past selves have a lot of wisdom to teach you when you bring them back.

Krati: yeah. that as we discussed in

Perpetua: yeah. yeah.

Krati: that was so loved by my audience. so right and it compounds over time as well.

Perpetua: Definitely. So if we see compound interest working in the stock markets, we can see them working in our heads, in our lives. Of course, if there’s something that you want to build on yourself, I also have a book called This Is What Matters, um, published by Simon Schuster two years ago or three years ago.

And it’s got 50 different exercises in which you can clarify about what do you want in your life going forward across seven areas of your life? , what stops you and what gets, how can you get yourself there? So. If you’d like, you can always pick up a book. I use it a lot in my corporate conferences.