Toxic Friends, Fake Support & Hidden Jealousy: The Truth About Adult Friendships with Dr. Perpetua Neo

Krati: Adult you friendships, this is a topic that has been on my mind, but I wasn’t able to articulate it and shape it quite how you did it. So here’s what I want to know. Why do you think this topic is so important?

Perpetua: I think friendships are a really important fundamental part of our lives. We think that our romantic relationships are the most important. And while it’s good to have a partner in our lives, um, it’s not always the case for everybody, as we know that it’s harder and harder to be in a relationship, or a lasting relationship, and, or a good, healthy relationship.

So, you know, ultimately, It’s about your friendship groups, your friends who will stick with you till the end of your life, if you’re lucky. And of course, you know, we have many different theories of friendship. Like for instance, when somebody’s in a relationship, they’re likely to lose one friend or two, because they, um, because we can only maintain that many close relationships.

And then there are also ideas that friendships last for sometimes a reason or a season. And sometimes, of course, like I said, you know, if you’re lucky, it will last you through the rest of your life. If, I mean, like, that’s also contingent on whether it’s a, it’s a relationship that you actually like, right?

So let’s say you have a healthy relationship lasting with you till the end of your life. That’s contingent on all parties growing together. so Ultimately, you know, we talk a lot about our family of origin. Sometimes we talk a lot about what’s happening in our ancestry, right? We talk about our romantic relationships, but a really important part is also the friendships that we have Because they are part of our social support group, they also inform who we are.

If we think about how, as kids, we go off to school, right? And then that’s where we develop a lot of our social skills. Because families are actually growing smaller and smaller these days, right? Um, and, you know, in the past, cousins and all would grow up together in many societies. But in a lot of modern, , and current industrial or advanced capitalist societies, families are incredibly nuclear these days.

So Schools are where you learn to make friends. And then as you go into teenagehood, your brain, , is developing in a way that prompts you to have your own identity, right? And this identity is always different from your families. So who is your model then? Your social group. Hence, the importance of why we need to talk about friendships.

And then, of course, you know, there’s this, like, idea that I totally call bullshit on, that the older you are, the harder it is to make friends, because you’re not consciously out there making friends, you’re no longer in school where, you know, you’re forced within a certain proximity and time and repeated experiences to become friends with a person.

So some people say that when you leave school from your mid twenties onwards, it’s harder and harder to make friends. And when you think about all these different ideas together We think about, actually, friendship is something worth thinking about.

Krati: Um, you know, you say that we are very keen on developing a very independent identity, but at some point in this conversation, I do want to ask you, because I think, um, we our identity the more, uh, sort of we integrate some sort of groups that are very focused on chasing agendas.

We tend to lose that identity that we are so keen on keeping separate from everyone else’s. So that’s something that I definitely want to talk about. But before we get to that part, because I think that will lead on to a lot of other topics, I want to ask you to your understanding, in your opinion, what does A healthy friendship look and feel like?

Perpetua: A healthy friendship is one where you feel safe to be yourself. And be yourself, I don’t just mean authenticity without responsibility. So, you know, let’s get that clear first, okay? If I’m pissed off with you and I say a lot of bad things that’s in my head, right, that’s also authentic. Because my brain makes me think that way.

So, you know, so the safety to be yourself. To be able to express how you feel, express your boundaries, your preferences, and negotiate compromises. So, you know, let’s say you like to do this, I like to do that. Um, let’s meet in the middle. Or some days let’s do this, some days let’s do that. The safety to be able to do that.

The safety to, you know, have values of your own that while being able to Take into consideration another person’s values as well. So this is not about their safety in numbers. I need you to convert to my values or my ideas or my opinions completely. But rather, you know, we, it’s not even agree to disagree.

We allow each other to have our own perspectives and be our own people. It’s a relationship where generally your nervous system feels safe. You are not on tenterhooks. And, you know, we talk a lot, especially in the last four or five years, right, when there’s been an explosion of mental health awareness and ideas of gaslighting, toxicity, trauma, narcissism, psychopathy.

So we talk a lot about toxic relationships and toxic friendships. There’s a lot of awareness about this in societal vernacular. But what we don’t talk much about is the idea of ambivalent friendships. And we’re going to use here the idea of ambivalent friendships to contrast so that we understand what a healthy relationship is.

So if you think about toxic friendship, or any toxic relationship, is when you’re, when it’s net high in negative interactions, and net low in positive interactions. You think about your good healthy relationships, right? Net, overall, it’s low in negative interactions. It’s high in positive interactions.

Then we have our ambivalent relationships, which are high in both positive and negative interactions. And we think that toxic ones are just so bad, right? But actually, science has shown continuously, over and over again, consistently, that it is your ambivalent relationships, whether it’s friendships, , romantic relationships, family origin, or work relationships, that are actually worse for your health.

Because Your body doesn’t quite know what to do. Am I going to be faced with Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde today? So you’re always on your toes. Your parasympathetic nervous system, the one that does rest and digest when you feel safe, is not switching on. Instead, your fight or flight is, okay, let me prepare at any time, is switched on.

So you may think that there might be some positivity and so that’s good. Actually, that’s not good for you because sometimes we use positivity as a way of excusing negative, bad, unhealthy, toxic behavior.

Krati: That’s huge. And I don’t think very many people do those sorts of very, what feels like very necessary calculations, but you really should, you know, I would say that. For me, it’s very simple. Uh, if somebody is making me feel cornered, constantly ambushed in conversations, constantly neglected, like, like you said, the net positive, net negative, like if constantly I walk away and I’m drained. And I am not looking forward to our next conversation. I would walk away but, you know, it’s easier when you are, as you said, like as an adult, like in this age, I’m 33. I feel like giving a second chance, giving a third chance, because it feels like it’s not that easy now to make friends, you know, and not everybody.

feels worth your time anymore. Your time is more precious. You have more responsibilities. Having said that, and considering what we’ve discussed up to this point, this is why you also need to have a lot more clarity on what a healthy friendship feels like. So that you make the right choice and you don’t keep, no matter how hard it is to make friends, you do not want to carry people on and on and on people who are gonna hurt your mental health.

Perpetua: Definitely. And I think like, you know, one important thing is also to be aware that initially you don’t really know people. Sometimes it takes time to, for people’s true colors to emerge. So even, you know, sometimes people get really upset with themselves because why didn’t I detect this early on, I should be smart or brave enough, blah, blah, blah, right?

And then actually sometimes, you know, like it’s not healthy to just immediately ghost or cut a person. That is, that shows impulsive behavior, the inability to have difficult conversations or inability to negotiate boundaries, right? So if you, you know, initially you, it’s like the test phase, right? And it’s like, you know, you go to, when I go and buy lipstick.

In a concert, right? I will see different shades of red, for instance, and I want to see which red suits with me, suits me well. So think about that as the test phase of a friendship and don’t beat yourself up just because you didn’t see somebody’s true colors straight away. Because there are many reasons why it’s hard to detect as well.

Some people are good at hiding, some people are bad at detecting. Well, when I mean bad at detecting, I mean some of us are just not very in touch with our body and our intuition and you know, for instance, neurodiverse people, have a lot of them are higher, um, in the propensity to have this thing called Alexithymia, meaning that they are cut off from their emotions.

So they may feel something, but they don’t know what they are feeling, or they don’t even know that they are feeling it. And the good news is that this can actually be trained. Okay? Or maybe on a bad day, or a bad season, you meet somebody, and you’re, they’re kind of, you are kind of vulnerable, they’re kind of nice to you because they’re nice to people who are down in the dumps, right?

And then, you know, you develop this, This friendship, this gratitude, and sometimes they also remind you about the good things they’ve done for you as well. So, there’s all sorts of reasons why you may have found yourself in a situation where you realize, Uh oh, this person is not good for me. And the thing about this is sort of in this sense, right, like, you know, we are just still recovering from, Did COVID really happen?

Kind of like, you know, this strange time dilation field, right? So, a lot of people are now telling me that, oh, you know, like, Oh, I like the friendships or the relationships I developed during COVID actually, they’re very temporary, they were not that good or not that healthy, or I’m starting to see different sides of people.

That’s because we start things in unique circumstances. So take the personal blame away, but rather respect and honor your ability to step back and ask based on everything I know right now, based on this discernible pattern of what I’m watching in behaviors and how my body is responding. Is this good or bad for me?

And can this be changed? Can this be transformed? Like if I say, Oh, I’m not happy with this behavior. Why do you have to say this? Can we do this instead? So this is your boundaries, right? This is your guidebook for telling people how I would like to be treated, right? And if the person does not respect that, or belittles you, that Is your answer, but if the person, yeah, but the person is open to having a conversation, a sane, logical, , respectful conversation, , and they consistently treat you the way you need to be treated, like a decent human being from now on, then it is a sign that this is a friendship that’s worth developing.

Krati: this is so so so huge. I cannot like literally every single friend that I’ve had Has told me at some point in our friendship that I didn’t expect you to be this this person that has now emerged because initially Everyone I would be too aloof It’s not one of my finer qualities, but when somebody is trying to build a friendship with me because I’m so comfortable in my own company, I don’t make the effort.

I simply don’t make the effort, which is, as I said, not one of my good qualities. I can be very lazy initially in the friendship, , so you have to do all the work. And then I come across as aloof, sometimes a little bit snooty, sometimes very reserved, too quiet. Once the friendship gets deeper I’m, I feel comfortable opening up.

In fact, I want to open up because, you know, I, I’m starting to like the other person. I’m starting to trust them, uh, more importantly. And then they would, every single one of my friends has said that, Oh, I didn’t expect you to have this side to you or, you know, be able to do these, this thing, or be, have this kind of fun with you.

So I think, I am someone who can safely say that never like they say you cannot judge a book by its cover But then they also say that first impressions are

everything and then they also say that when somebody shows you who they are believe them None of that is absolutely true. You you have to really dig into people are…

Perpetua: Oh, definitely.

Krati: People are complex. There’s so many layers to them, but I will also say that like I’ve been friends with people, six months into a friendship, I would be like why am I still picking up their call?

Why am I still talking to them? They keep, they don’t treat me with respect. They are always saying mean shit about other people, but then I would bring that up with them. I would be like, okay, listen, you keep doing this thing, not cool. Please stop. And this is what I am more comfortable with. And they would change. They would actually make the effort because nobody probably had to, has pointed out that, that particular side to them and they went, once they, you know, look back at their own interactions, they would be like, Oh yeah, I do do that. And that’s not very nice. I can’t believe I’ve been doing that. And they’ll change. So, you know, people are so quick to walk away. Maybe. Like you pointed out, you know, you have to really understand and have those communication and if that communication some goes well, like you end up, you can end up with something even healthier than what you had if you had that conversation. But as you said, if they in turn laugh at you or mock you, or call you names like people tend to do, I was too sensitive or this and then. You know, that’s your cue to walk away.

Perpetua: Or sometimes you see signs that a person starts to leak out over time because their facade is less controlled, maybe because they’re more comfortable with you or they take it for granted or maybe they’re going through a period of high stress in their lives, so it’s harder to keep things together, right?

But then, then that’s when, you know, you start to see more instances of these things leak out and that also confirms a person’s fundamental personality. So Robert Greene, the author who wrote the series called Mastery, Power, um, War, love his stuff. You know, I remember one of the things that he writes about is People will slip, leaks come out, right? So when you see somebody who engages in shot in Florida regularly and also a sense of A double standard, you know, sometimes you can even test a double standard. So if they keep doing one thing and you just test by doing the exact same thing, very rarely and see how they act or whether a person is actually happy for you.

I think that’s a really, really big one because when people are unable to be happy for you, but instead start saying bad things about you, start demeaning you, playing you down, that again is a sign that these people will keep you small. And the only way to function in a place like that is to demean yourself and contort yourself to become smaller and smaller and smaller.

And while you may think that is safe survival mechanism, that is not safe at all when you run into this kind of issue over and over again. So just because somebody wants you to deem yourself doesn’t mean you should do that because actually it’s not safe. You’re just making yourself live smaller and be smaller and you shrink essentially.

Krati: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. I think that that’s happening in the world I I would say I I know people there is someone like that in my life. Um, Who is only able to be friends with people who are? Sort of, not their financial equal, not their social equal. It’s the only way they can be friends with someone.

Like, they don’t like being challenged, and they don’t like being, like, they don’t, they don’t know what to do with people who are either better than them

in some ways, which always happens, you know. Everybody’s better in some ways and not so much in some other ways. That’s how friendship, in fact, that’s, I think, would be a good friendship, but, you know, there are people who just, you can’t, they can’t handle it. They need to know that they are doing, earning more, they have a better social status. They, they, they need to know that they’re better than you, whatever that means to them, you know, cause the definition would not be the same for everyone. And I, I. I don’t know if those sorts of friendships can work unless you sort of…

Perpetua: Shrink yourself. Contort yourself. Shrink yourself. You know, become double jointed. Uh, put yourself in a tiny and tinier box. And then like, ultimately that’s bad for your own health, your own growth. And you know, it reminds me a lot of the saying that I read a long time ago that says, Some people cut off the heads of others to look taller.

I thought it was very, very powerful and, you know, like, the thing, the thing is that we all will feel envious at times, right? And we are likeliest to feel envious when somebody is of the same social background to us. So I’m likeliest to feel envious of somebody I went to school with in my same cohort than Bill Gates.

Right? That’s just the way it is, a social comparison, a social distance thing. So it’s very important for us to learn to grow up and emotionally mature. And by that, it’s not just about social benefit or playing better with people. It’s about your own heart, your own nervous system, you know, your own brain, your own health and sanity.

So maturity is actually the ability to hold the fact that I’m looking at somebody’s success and that makes me feel like crap when I look at my own life for whatever reason. And the fact that I’m genuinely happy for them. But a lot of it is, cannot bridge that. Or cannot even say that I’m happy for you, or my life sucks.

So what’s the easiest way? Tar somebody, cut somebody else down, and laugh and turn it into a joke. And that is not cool at all.

Krati: Do you think people recognize that in themselves when they’re doing that?

Perpetua: I know some people do that as a deliberate mechanism. To make themselves shine the most and you know, like, like the just moments of schadenfreude when something licks out, right? or when like some some in some of the friendships when someone has been complimented somebody’s face literally goes black and Not just once many many times they find ways of oh you’re this but you are that they remind you of ways in which They think you should be kept small like your past your social status your money Or, you know, they’ll just say very, very sudden cutting things and then start talking about things that are like, you know, more neutral or more positive.

If these leaks consistently happen, then again, that’s a really bad sign.

Krati: What I tend to notice online, you know, as you were talking about people putting other people down, what I noticed. And I, I wouldn’t usually share this because I don’t think I’m very good at noticing these, these patterns, but I think I see a lot of people who gravitate to each other. And like maintain very long term friendships on some very unhealthy foundations in the sense that somebody wants to live a life where they do very little, they complain a lot, and they would end up forming giant groups where they promote that kind of behavior.

Like, I know for a fact that, you know, I consider you friend. And I have other friends, if I were to bitch and moan about my work, more than a few times, my friends would turn around and then say, They will tell me either stop doing that work, find something healthier, or quit complaining.

It’s not because they’re being, they’re getting bugged by it. No, they’re my friends. They’re in my corner. It’s because they know what this constant complaining is going to do to my motivation and mental health.

I see this happening all the time, all over the world where these, there are friendships where people hype each other up, which is awesome.

You know, you are supposed to hype your friend up, but they’re hyping each other up over like stuff where there should be accountability, stuff where they should be calling each other out and saying, this doesn’t seem like, not because the behaviour in itself is unhealthy, but clearly this is doing nothing for you. . At least I see it. I see a lot of other, podcasters, other people online pointing it out. And yet to those groups, the groups keep growing and nobody clearly, they’re not seeing it. And that completely, you know, is so jarring to me that how is this happening? Yeah, Our misery loves company.,

Perpetua: One extra person added to your perspective makes it more that’s what Paulo Coelho said, I think. Was it in the, uh, in the pilgrimage? One of his books, anyway. And I thought that was all, maybe warrior, um, it’s one of the books on being a spiritual warrior. But I remember reading that and I thought, wow, that is so fascinating.

Um, that really hits home hard, which is why, you know, we need people to validate us and, you know, that like, but the things like, you know, if that’s what you, as you point out, right? Like say you’re going through a bad time at work. Yes. As a friend, someone will give you space to talk because it’s a season, right? We have to give our friends space. Um, but if this becomes forever, you know, like what? What happened is if your friend’s concerned about you and also concerned about your friendship because they know that if you keep Going down this path and complaining non stop, they’re gonna get tired, right? So as a friend, you know, it’s okay to say hey, you know what like I notice you’ve been doing this for X number of months Um, it’s Going nowhere.

What do you want to do? So I remember for instance, you know, like a really close friend Telling for some time about their very bad spouse And, obviously it’s a friend, I’ll listen, because I’m a friend, I’m not this person’s therapist or coach, and I listen, and I just, and I just said that, hey, okay, so after I said, you know, you’ve been doing this for this amount of time, and then they were actually saying, oh, actually, I don’t remember, because sometimes things are so good, sometimes things are so bad, so thank you for helping me to see the picture.

I’m like, okay. Um, and also because I happen to have an elephant memory, right? So I guess that’s also quite useful. And then after that, after this person started to definitely identify their spouse as somebody who is really nasty, really controlling, really manipulative, and doing it consciously and deliberately, um, after some time, I said, okay, if you have said that you want to exit the situation, as your friend, I have to tell you that you really have to do that pretty soon, because it’s not just me, your other friends will get tired of listening to this. And then you’re going to find yourself, not necessarily about me, but you’re going to find yourself with no social support. And that’s going to be very dangerous for a situation like this. So I’m just going to put it, keep, just put it out there.

Like, for me, I also have friends who have told me such situations, um, like, you know, keeping each other accountable, but without meddling, without giving extra advice, but rather saying that, hey, you want me to be in your life and supporting you. This is what, how our friendship needs to grow healthier. But when we are thinking about the scripts that you mentioned, it’s always easier to validate each other and not grow, because growing is hard, growing takes courage It’s always easier to say, oh, no, this is so generic.

This is why this thing would never work for me. This is why, you know, this person grew up rich and therefore they can do X, Y, Z. This person was so lucky that they are brave enough to take action and change their lives. I mean, there is all sorts of insane excuses that a person will give to, to basically justify why somebody else is doing that and they cannot.

And of course, you know, it’s always easier to keep each other stuck.

Krati: I think also there’s like a global shift. I don’t know if I probably shouldn’t say global shift. I think it’s there in some societies because I don’t see this in India yet. , but definitely it’s happening where people are treating each other as fragile, like, you know how politically sensitive it has become to talk about working out, to talk about eating healthy, Because suddenly if you work out, you are fat shaming other people, and you are a toxic person, which to me was Every time I talk about it, my mind is blown because I, I’ve talked about it so much because people keep bringing it up But I still cannot wrap my mind around that that somebody could put that kind of interpretation in you Wanting to be healthy.

Why wouldn’t you want to be healthy and why wouldn’t you want your friend to be healthy calling them toxic? So there is this sort of shift I see in the world where everybody is treating each other as fragile because they want to be treated as fragile.

What I mean by that is I want to be treated as fragile so I’m treating other people as fragile because I want the same in return. And you know you would attract that kind of person if you sort of put that out there. So I think there is that issue also. This is one of the reasons why like I wouldn’t be friends with someone who doesn’t call me out on my crap because then I don’t feel safe with you.

I would feel safe with you, if regardless of what terminology you use, you call me out on my crap. I have dedicated, , friend groups that do nothing but make fun of each other, but we make fun of each other, you know, not about appearance or about that sort of thing, but about achievements. So we would be like, okay, are you doing anything this year?

Or is this another shit show, uh, it’s like that. Those were my new year greetings. This, this, uh, you know, midnight friends reminding me, you gotta travel more, you gotta do more, you gotta read more, and I was doing the same for them. But you know, that’s not for everyone, that’s fine. But what I’m saying is, I think there is, there is a mental health crisis, I know that, I’m very aware of that, and that is true for, the entire world also for India, but the treating each other as fragile, especially in friendship groups that are supposed to be, you know, people who are supposed to keep you accountable.

These are people we listen to. We actually respect for them to start treating you as fragile and for them to have no accountability. I think that is dangerous, but what would you tell our listeners? Cause I wouldn’t do a very good job here, but I think you will at letting them know where, what is the balance here?

Because we do want friends who support us, but we, we also got to watch out for people who are gonna sort of allow us to stay down, like just cause we had one bad experience or just cause we were having a bad season.

Perpetua: I think it’s such an important point because we not only outsource authority to other people. But generally, there’s enough investment and enough credibility that’s been invested in a friendship to make them credit worthy that we are likely to believe them. Because we trust them, right? The trust currency, the trust investment is very high already.

So I think this would be a case where we think about what happens when we make a change. So, you know, you and I, we’ve all made changes in different periods of our lives, right? Like I can tell you in the last four years, big changes I’ve had is building discipline, working out, which now I’m scared of being called toxic.

Nah, I’m kidding. Um, working out, you know, having supplements for the first time in my life, taking care of my skin to reverse many rounds of grateful acne. Um, uh, so many things, you know, like from not eating excessively, more than a man twice my weight. Um, you know, just building up all these different parts of my life for the first time in my life.

And so these are the changes that I’ve made. And this is one of the changes that Like all the other changes I’ve made stepwise in my life, progressively, I have seen backlash. Not by everyone, but sometimes I see. But, you know, I have enough clarity of mind, and, so, because I’m in this industry, to know that when you make a change, someone is going to be unhappy.

And sometimes this unhappiness is more about them than about you. And it’s going to hurt because You wonder why your friend cannot support you, why your friend is thinking this way, you doubt yourself. So, obviously, when we think about change, we want to think along different lines, right? So, for instance, if somebody is engaged in a habit that I know is going to hurt them, hurt others, hurt the relationship, then that would be a red flag, right?

That would be something I would say, hey, you know, like, this doesn’t sound very healthy. Right? So, obvious things would be like, somebody is like, gaming till they’re not eating, they’re not sleeping, they’re not washing. Right? That’s clearly something that’s affecting everybody’s lives, right? Um, or they’re not going to work, so that’s bad.

If somebody is gambling non stop, hurting their own savings, or going to big debt, getting fights with their loved ones, then again, that’s something that clearly is not good. If somebody is getting drunk every night, and And you know, their relationships are suffering as a result. Their health is suffering as a result.

Maybe it’s something that you can say. Then everything else, you know, like my question here is that, is it any of my business? Um, is it any of your business? Are you harming anyone? Are you not harming anyone? So what’s there to, what’s, are you harming yourself? So if you’re not doing any of that, then it’s nothing for me to say. At all.

And, but the thing is that when somebody has, goes through a change, then it, It elicits in us this like, unconscious jolt about what’s going on in our lives, like, Oh, they are running. I’m not. Oh, you know, my body is changing. And this is contrast, right? So again, what’s the easiest way to deal with this discomfort?

Put somebody down. Um, and then when we see somebody reaping the benefits of that lifestyle, you might hear really bad stuff like, Oh, I think you’ve got a disorder. I think you might be ill. What’s wrong with you? And, so maybe I can share with you a little bit about my own story to put in context, right? So, like most people during the pandemic, I was very actively cooking.

Um, I’ve always cooked, but that was when I just threw myself into hyper focus, making all sorts of projects. Down to hand rolling pasta, hand cutting pasta, mustering the four room pastas, making bread with my eyes closed, breading hala bread. It was amazing, but I became the biggest I’ve ever been in my life, which, again, you know, people will remind me it’s not big, but for my own standards, because I have tiny bones, it’s big, and as somebody with ADHD, um, and a mouth that just eats to keep myself from boredom, uh, that’s very dangerous, right?

And, I don’t feel full easily, I have an insane appetite that, like I said, can best men double my weight. I’ve done all sorts of competitions with them, and it’s quite funny. I still can, but I don’t do that anymore. So, that was actually my wake up call, because I was like, you know what, like, enough of this lack of discipline.

Just because it’s harder for ADHD brains to develop discipline doesn’t mean I don’t want to not have discipline. So, I told myself, I’m going to start small, I’m going to start running. And then, obviously, I attached that to a dubious life goal, which is the only thing that gets me out of my house at night to run, which is, okay, I want to wear a crop top all year round, you know?

Because it’s better, if I tell you I want to be healthy, as an immediate goal, that’s not going to get me out of my sofa, right? So, I did that, and then, the weight dropped. Along the way, I was very very happy, you know, and I was like, oh, you know, this is this is great already I thought it was the lightest I could ever get and I was very very happy But along the way it became part of my identity But halfway through, you know, I started getting really weird things like I had accused accusations of having an eating disorder which is totally bullshit.

I had accusations that fasting is bad for you, and I know old Like, all conventional medical, industries always say, Oh, you know, you cannot fast, you cannot do this and that. But, you know, I read the studies. I read the books. And I’m absolutely And then, actually, my blood work has gone all the way up to super, like, super optimal levels, right?

And I actually have got, got the test results. And I know what it’s like for me, right? And I also, I have a life. So I have, like, I, I implement, like, socially flexible fasting. So if I’m on a holiday, I, if I’ve got business lunches, I’m going to do them. But then there’ll be days when I’m just a bit healthier without being a complete stickler. But then I started getting, Oh, are you sick? Do you have cancer? And I was like, wow, wait, where’s that coming from? Um, actually I look healthier than ever, thank you very much. , so, it’s, but it’s a shock. And then they say, oh, why are you sensitive? I’m just concerned. And I’m like, that’s not concern. , obviously sometimes, I, you know, living in a society that’s very communal, Communitarian, right?

Um, I would check myself to make sure that I am definitely not being strange in according to this society’s norms. So I ask people I trust, right? They’re like, what do you mean by cancer? That sounds like a complete and total curse. And then this girl said, I’ll totally score that person. What do you mean by cancer?

Why are you cursing me? I thought that was so funny. But the thing is that people will say stuff. And. When you embark on a change, you have to be aware that some people will not be happy. When your life starts to pick up in whatever direction of growth that you want, there will be people that you will outgrow.

It is a sad fact of life.

Krati: Yeah. That is so huge. And cancer, that seems a little much, I think.

Perpetua: Yeah, I mean if you compare my pictures from like now versus my entire life, I don’t, and I show you my blood work, not even, I mean like if even if I didn’t show you my blood work, right? I definitely do not look like I have cancer.

Krati: yeah, and I don’t think, like, I know intermittent fasting really doesn’t work for some people. It doesn’t work for me. But it’s really, it’s a very personal thing, it’s something that only your body can tell you. There are things that work for literally everyone, and they may not work for a certain someone, but that’s because their body isn’t responding well to it, and that’s for them to decide.

So I think in those respects, really, you should tell your friend, I will support you. Let’s find out how this goes for you, okay? I, I have a really hard time giving up sweets. So, um, I, and I’m strength training, which means I’m eating a lot more. But I’m trying to lose weight, which is very, I’m, I’m still, I still don’t know where I’m going with this.

But, um, my friends are supporting me. They’re like, okay, let’s try this now. Let’s try that now. And they don’t Yeah, that’s support. You know, you, you don’t make judgment calls for your friends, especially if your friend is a grown ass person.

Perpetua: Yeah, and I also think that we know that words are spells. I’m not talking like, like, round about the cauldron boil kind of Shakespeare kind of spells, right? Or the Wicked Witch, even though some people believe that way. What I’m talking about when words are spells is is that we think about something a teacher said to us when we were 7 years old or 10 years old.

It sticks in our identity so many years later. When somebody tells you, I believe you. It removes the shame. It removes the guilt. You fast track into healing. Words are absolutely spells. And as grown ups, we are not perfect. Growing up means, maturing means that we know we have a responsibility to say words

that are thoughtful, are kind, and necessary. So this is not to say, you know, I’m going to be on eggshells around everybody, but rather some things don’t have to be said. You don’t have to be mean. You don’t have to use horrible words or laugh at a person to hide your own discomfort about yourself. That is your responsibility to look in yourself and understand that it’s scary, but it’s not impossible.

To get through that, and when you break through, you grow as a person.

Krati: That is so beautiful. Do you think it’s possible to have all things from all people in the sense that have like, I have friends who I would call when I’m having an anxiety attack, um, at like middle of the night where I am like having Usually I if I wouldn’t call anyone I would write in my journal or something like that But if I’m going to call I’m gonna call there’s there’s a group I have

Perpetua: So that’s like your 3:00 AM friends.

Krati: Yeah, like those are friends who are no those are friends actually who have mental health issues of their own They’re very familiar with the lingo.

They’re very familiar with how this goes, you know They’re not people who gonna be like, what do you mean? You’re worried about this is not something to worry about. Stop worrying They’re never gonna say that but then I have also have friends who are gonna be like, what do you mean? This is what a stupid thing to worry about.

Stop worrying about this. Go put on your running shoes. Go run So I have friends like that and those are the people I call when I know I want to get pumped up and I don’t want to sit anymore and just Keep talking about this. Those are people I call. Then there are, there’s some things I would go to my mom for, and there’s some other things that I would go to my brother for.

Stuff like that. But do you think it’s possible to have friendships? And, and I will tell you, I’m very clear about what I’m gonna get from these groups. So, because I maintain very healthy boundaries, uh, and I know there are some things I wouldn’t, even though I love my mom, she’s, you know, she’s my mom.

She’s 100 percent in my corner. But I know that, you know, bringing up childhood stuff, It’s gonna get her back up. She’s gonna get defensive because she’s gonna think I’m blaming her or something. I’m never talking about that sort of stuff with her because that never goes well. And then I end up getting my feelings hurt and then it’s just, yeah. So you get my point, right?

Perpetua: Definitely. So I think, yeah, I think this is such an important point over here. It’s the same thing as we expect a partner, a relationship partner, right, to fulfill everything. I think that’s complete and total bullshit.

So what I call is have a diversified portfolio of friends. And there’s some friends that I will do sports with.

And, you know, like, so even though there have been a bunch of people who say horrible things about me working out. I also have got people who have been watching this and they also have been getting healthy as well They’re like, oh teach me how to do this teach me how to do that They’ve been doing that because and then many years later they say, you know, it’s because I watched Partly because I watched your journey and you did this with me.

I’m like, oh, I’m so glad that you know that I Inspired something in you and and that you know, you actually liking the outcome of that So and also those are the friends that I would do sports with, right? they’re friends that I will talk to about some things and some topics because they have the bandwidth and obviously ask for permission first and they also have the ability to To understand it right the same first principles and ability to look at different perspectives.

I have friends I only eat sweet things with I have friends I play I only do fun stuff with so I’m very clear about Who I do what with and I am very happy with that And I also know that there are people who are not happy about the fact that I have that kind of clearly demarcated roles But that’s, again, that’s not on me, like, I can’t, just, with the fun people, I cannot tell them everything about my life, or, nor do I tell anyone everything about my life, but I do not want to be guilted, or expected, or shamed, into having to tell people details that I know are not safe for the person.

Krati: that is so true. What about alignment regarding values, beliefs, ideologies. What about alignment where All of this is concerned because do you think that that should matter in a friendship? Do you think you can have a healthy supportive friendship despite knowing that this person’s beliefs are in contradiction to my own?

Perpetua: I think that people are so complex, that we all have different beliefs for different reasons, and sometimes we pick up on that. Certain beliefs solidify during crisis points in our lives because our world of assumptions and our brains get shattered and it changes. So I am incredibly flexible with people’s values and what matters the most to them.

But then there are obviously some no no’s, right? Like I do not like cruelty, especially intentional cruelty. But then, you know, some people have different ideas about relationship. , diFferent outlooks about life, about money, about politics. And I know that those are incredibly divisive things, but I think that these things don’t have to be divisive.

You can have your own, I can have my own, and we do not have to convince each other about who is more right or who is absolutely wrong. I would think about the Oscar Wilde quote that he wrote when he was in prison, which is, Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live.

So, it’s not about having to adhere to the exact same beliefs, the exact same luggage brand, the exact same, , places you travel to, or the same poems, or same, and and punishing somebody, because they don’t adhere to that, but rather letting people have certain value systems, because it is what they choose, and this doesn’t mean that your value systems will not change, or their value systems will not change either.

It’s about the fact that as long as we have a healthy, open discussion when it matters, that’s all I really care about.

Krati: I think you In this regard, this is just my opinion. I think you have to know what you will not be okay being a bystander for, I think. Because, like, if I have a friend who is cheating on their spouse, don’t, if I find out, I will

tell them. Now, I don’t know if that’s right or wrong. I don’t know. I also don’t care. Don’t, don’t let me find out, then, if you are a cheater. Because if I do, I’m gonna tell on you. So, a lot of people would say that that is me being unsupportive. That is me being a interfering in something that is none of my business. I don’t believe that. So I think there, I think you have to be very clear on, you have to know what your sort of non negotiables are, what are your no go areas.

Perpetua: Yeah, what you stand for and then everything else, you know, is really about does your political views, who you voted for hurt me? Okay, of course you might say that. Oh, uh, you voted for this person, this person’s going to create this bunch of policies, you know, anywhere in the world, right? And, you know, you could get really upset and inflamed by that.

And, you know, that to me, that’s a long shot. Because no political system is perfect, right? It’s all messy. Um, it’s very, very complex. It’s complicated. And so for me, that is not a reason to unfriend somebody because they voted for something., or somebody has a certain kind of relationship arrangement that is, again, their life, their preference.

And as long as they keep themselves safe, I don’t really care. I don’t judge a person for, you know, like, for instance, um, what kind of lifestyle habits have unless they are harming themselves. Then I might have to say something about it if I really care about this person, and I just can’t see the obvious danger it’s bringing to their lives.

Krati: That, that makes sense. I think there are definitely people you just do not need to have political discussions with because you know their opinions are very different from your own. So maybe, you know, you don’t discuss that with them and you, you know, maintain the friendship with everything else.

And I think that makes sense what you just said. Yeah, I think you have to like, going back to that point that you made, you have to figure out whether this is hurting them, this is hurting someone else. Is this your business? Is this not? I think that sort of. I think you have to, you have to work with that kind of criteria.

Tell me about conditional friendships, recognizing conditional friendships.

Perpetua: Um, I think then that would also align quite well with the idea of having a diversified portfolio of friends, right? So, you know, it’s like this, uh, like the parameters in which I run this friendship. It doesn’t mean that it will not evolve. But what this means is that for now, this is what I do with this person.

This is, these are the things I talk about to this person. These are things that I consent to discuss or disclose. And that is okay, you know, you shouldn’t feel guilted to having to overshare. Especially if that’s something very private to you, or you just don’t feel safe. It’s not to mean that there’s a lot of skeletons in your closet, or even half a skeleton in your closet.

It’s just, some things are private to us. Some matters we have to digest privately before we talk. Or before we start to open up. We have to think about them first. And everybody has got their different ways of processing a situation. Some people like to do it aloud to somebody else. Some people do it publicly.

Some people do it privately. Whenever it is, we are all different in a sense. And it’s about respecting the OS in which you process things.

Krati: Yeah, okay, talk to me about toxic feminism and girl gangs because this is something, again, that I’m very I’m very conflicted about because I do recognize that these girlboss, all of these girl groups that are formed to promote feminism and to, to help their friends be stronger, stand up for themselves.

Like that is what has brought them together. I do see the value in that because

yes, there are women who really do need that kind of support. But we also now see again, you know, sometimes we overcorrect and we do see some sort of a toxic side to it emerging. When that happens, there’s a lot of dependency because if somebody has raised you, it is going to be very hard to stand up to that particular person.

You know, like you said, they’re going to remind you, remember all of this that I did for you when you were, you know, in that bad place? How do we recognize that? And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but I see that more with women than I do with men.

Perpetua: I think that women, , are basically wired to be more communitarian. So that’s how we evolved, right? And women used to raise kids together in tribes. And a lot of our wiring has not evolved to modern day situations and modern day whatever that means keeps changing all the time So it’s very hard to keep up.

So as women, you know bonding together has got a function to it Like there’s evolutionary evidence on how or theories about how gossip serves as a social bond Right because people come together and talk is also a way of correcting and policing each other’s behaviors. So in that sense, you know when women stand up for each other when women for instance in Meetings echo each other’s ideas.

It prevents it from being mansplained or hijacked by somebody else. This is great, right? Like, you know, as if everything, I think there’s always two sides to the picture. Like, we have a lot of mental health awareness and there’s also, like, generic stuff that’s being used as excuses or being misused, misquoted.

Then it gives it a bad name. So when it comes to toxic femininity, we can see it in the same lens that sometimes it becomes about we got to adhere to these values and you’re not allowed to think differently. We have to keep you as this person instead of saying that, Hey, that’s amazing how much you’ve grown and I’m so happy for you, you know, or, or it’s like, let’s look at how we can leapfrog you if you want to leapfrog into the next level.

Right. But sometimes it’s not about that. It’s about reminding this person that they’re always subservient to you or they always subordinate to you. And that is when that is not healthy at all. And that’s something that can, it’s not just in work communities or business communities, something that happens in cliques.

And the one observation that I’ve had speaking to a lot of clients and friends is that your clique at 15 year old actually becomes a worse version of that when they are 30, and then when they’re 50 80. Because the neural pathways get rehearsed over and over again. So most people don’t change. Most people become worse versions of themselves, right, if your habits are continued unreflexively.

And so, if your catty habits started at 15, or 14, or 13, and you’re 50, imagine how many years of practice you’ve had to solidify them and make them worse.

Krati: Do you think that this is a weird question, but I do feel compelled to ask like can such groups that have come together because of some trauma or because they are, you know, shaming a particular group, like maybe there are women who’ve come together after experiencing something violent and now they’re on sort of the hate men and that is what is, which is very understandable.

It’s not like I’m not

judging that, but I, I just wonder if that could ever be conducive to growth.

Perpetua: No, I think it, if you become so absolute and so rigid, unable to see how you’ve grown yourself, or how The world may be changing, how something is not completely black and white. So in this case, not all men are bad, right? There can be some

bad men,

Krati: Yes.

Perpetua: but not all men are bad. Just like there can be some bad women, but not all women are bad, right?

When you walk on the roads, there’s an X percent chance of getting into an accident. But that doesn’t mean you will get into an accident. That doesn’t mean you avoid

Krati: aking t

Perpetua: the pedestrian crossing. Right? So if you think about that in that way, if you keep yourself imprisoned within something completely rigid, then that does not help your growth at all.

Especially if you’re holding on to it in an unexamined manner.

Krati: Do you think if you reach that point, like you join a group because you need these people and they are sort of echoing your sentiment and it’s the sentiment that you need right now to hold yourself together and to survive. You join that group, but then you feel like, okay, I am moving past this trauma.

I’m starting to get to a healthier place. Do you think then you sort of in, as part of that group, as you start to not agree so much with their, you know, with their collective sentiments and you stand up to them or you, you know, you correct them or you walk away, which would be the better option? Because sometimes the consequences are

really not

good.

Perpetua: Yeah, I think it depends. Again, there’s never a right or wrong answer, which is a really irritating thing about talking to me.

Krati: No, that’s the

best thing about you.

Perpetua: It’s a, like, I would take a very relativist stance on a lot of actions because I think it requires discernment to choose. So let’s say I’m in a group where any dissent, we’re not talking about overt, angry protest, any dissent, any small at all perspective is not tolerated, shut down, punished or mocked, belittled, humiliated.

Okay, then that’s a clear sign that this is not safe to raise something. There are some groups where people are able to take different perspectives, even though they might be a bit extreme in their main perspective, in their main standpoint. So this is where, you know, it’s important to test the waters in that sense.

So if there’s a group that’s completely rigid and everything is punished, then maybe it’s okay to tell yourself that you’ve outgrown this situation. And this is not to say, you know, just run away straight away, right? Sit down, examine the data, talk to a person you trust about it, talk to your friend you trust, talk to a professional.

Because, you know, like this has become part of your identity. It’s your support group, sometimes it’s your crutch, right? And it’s a social vitamin as well. So you have to think, it’s not so easy just to cut it off. There will be grief, there’ll be sadness, there’ll be guilt, second guessing. Even though your gut might say, hey, you know what, you’ve outgrown, it’s time to do the right thing.

Your, your, your sense of doing the nice thing. Which is not the same as doing the right or the decent thing. Okay, your sense of being nice can make you feel incredibly guilty. So, it’s going to take courage, as with many things about growth. So, if you are able to understand that you’ve outgrown, you see the data, you’ve seen the patterns, and you make a decision, then it’s okay to do that.

It doesn’t reflect badly on you that you’ve outgrown something. Don’t confuse your sadness, your grief for being a bad person.

Krati: Honestly, I, if I have a kid and if my kid is gravitating towards joining any group, unless it’s like arts and crafts group or it’s like a, it’s like one of those groups, then it’s fine. But I think any group that’s based on any kind of ideology, I would actively discourage my kid. From, not actively, but I would probably not want my kid to join a group like that.

I, yeah, because I think, like you said, you know, there is no, so many times there’s no right and wrong. There’s just what you are choosing to do. And then there is the other side to the coin. Another perspective, another perspective, and another perspective. And that’s just how life works.

I, I really don’t think, like, these groups work. I, we, in India, you know, I didn’t really have friends growing up, but I would notice, like, there were groups of kids who were Just, just wanted to play all the time, and that’s why they were friends. And then there were groups who were like, all about academics, and

they would do the homework together.

They would make sure, if I don’t show up to school, you better get all the notes. And those were the, there were those groups. It was after I started watching American movies that I realized, Dude, there are jocks and then there are drama geeks and then there are and these are like, I don’t know It’s probably it’s because it’s a movie.

They’re obviously going to show the more dramatic side They’re not going to show the the dull mundane side So that’s why they but they show very toxic side to these groups like the jocks are bullying the nerds and the cheerleaders are bullying the drama group and that just seems like I don’t know, but although that’s all that’s on shared interests that is then bringing personalities into it like not every jock would be someone arrogant and, you know, you could be a very good looking sporty guy and still be humble and, you know,

good at

math.

Perpetua: Yeah, but I think like to this point is a lot about this us versus them dynamic. A lot of groups can only thrive because or survive because There is a them. So I remember one of my sociology tutors saying that the only way we can have world peace Is if the aliens are coming to attack us That’s when we will go us versus them, you know, well, maybe some people will join the aliens.

I don’t know You know, like so or maybe like us versus the cyborgs, right? I mean some of us might join the cyborgs

Krati: I’ll

join them.

Perpetua: Yeah, yeah, I think I’ll join the cyborgs too

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: So when you think about it that way, right like so if a group needs this us versus them to maintain themselves that is Often a sign that it might not be the healthiest for you if you decide to grow or if a group stays that way because it keeps people in a certain role. So some people are always acting in a certain way, um, and, and everybody has to only see that side of them, unwilling to see that this person is not this, part of this 15 year old identity you’ve ascribed to them.

Then, again, I think that is, is a bit gross, and some groups are held together by the fact that there are factions within these groups. So everybody is on their toes. And everybody, you know, was always, like, bad mouthing each other.

Krati: Okay. Let’s talk about some of the unhealthy behavior that happens within friendships You know We talked about the group dynamic and what we are essentially talking about here is how there is dependency that is created in the group and then when you start to grow In an independent way, it is not appreciated in certain groups, and you have to watch out for that.

But there’s also other things that happen, , that I want to talk about. Passive aggression, competition happening between friends, but it’s not out in the open, but it does create hostility that is unacknowledged. , making fun of others. This one is something I’ve lived through. Boy, have I lived through this and not, this is not fun, making fun of others and if they react and if they call you out on it, the group in general, most people would say, don’t be

so sensitive.

Come on. It’s they’re just having fun. So talk to me about those sorts of behaviors and the cost of

putting up with something like that.

Perpetua: So when it comes to passive aggression, it is, again, very confusing for your nervous system because it sounds passive and it can be interpreted in a benign or even positive way, right? Because this person’s not shouting at me, so maybe they’re smiling, maybe they’re doing it for my own good. And when you’re a person who adopts yourself or you’re in a particularly bad season in your life, or there’s enough trust currency that’s been invested into this relationship

or this group, it is painful to want to see that actually this is not good for me. So, passive aggression within that has a lot of ambiguity. And your brain hates ambiguity. That chews up insane amounts of energy. Energy that can be used for much better things. Even energy to go have a good night’s sleep so that your brain can clear off junk.

Right? That also takes, you know, like, like resources. So passive regression is something that people use because they can hide behind this. No, actually you’re too sensitive. Actually, it’s benign. Actually, it’s neutral. But that is not quite the case. Then we also have things like, you know, when groups, or I call that the subscription fee.

So this group is just too high. So, you know, you’ve got to do exact same things. You’ve got to espouse the same values. you Can’t say no to one or two things. The moment you are, you get dropped. So there’s a lot of fear, a lot of walking on eggshells. And, you know, this person might say, Oh, I, this person that you know, I don’t like them, and you are expected implicitly to drop this person.

Or sometimes you also see that in terms of jealousy or suspicions of your new friends or your other friends. And, you know, it could, it’s one thing for me to say that, Hey, you know, I noticed that you’ve been going out a lot with this person. You know, you’ve been having a lot of fun. That is a fact, right?

Like let’s say I see it on some stories. Oh my gosh, you guys are going on such amazing holidays, right? And I think that’s great. And then there’s, it’s another thing for someone to tell me, Oh, why are you always going out with this person? And then, tag to that, this person looks so blah blah blah. This person is so blah blah blah.

I’m like, you don’t even know this person. What do you mean by that? What? And then, again, you know, like, Growing up, I found that very, very confusing when somebody would say things like that to me, right? And then, girl translation would be Oh, they’re a bit insecure about your friends, which I now understand, right?

And I think that’s okay, but let’s say, you know, you’re seeing like one or two times, it’s okay, right? But let’s say I’m seeing a consistent pattern that someone is always saying weird comments, judgment about my friends that they don’t even know. I think that’s a bit bizarre for that to be a pattern or asking me things like, oh, why you always go out with this person?

Oh, how come you’re such good friends? It is none of your business, essentially.

Krati: Yeah. You know, I sometimes look at comedians, people who are very opinionated, you know, you get to see their personalities online and it’s either that they’re opinionated, or it’s because they’re so successful that they’re not so worried about what everyone else is thinking about them. do you think that if you have that kind of confidence, if you are that kind of person, you can maintain subtlety in your opinions, or do you have to be friends with people who appreciate a more blunt approach to life?

Perpetua: I think, again, that is a very relative thing, because some people like directness and bluntness, some people like trauma and exaggeration, right? So it’s almost like their lives are caricatures of, say, a meme page. Some people literally live like that, and if that suits them for who they are right now, sure, go ahead.

You know, like a lot of comedians. are brash, direct to the point, because that is their job. I remember Hannah Gadsby in, what, in The Net, she said that the way, like, a stand up comedy script is structured is that it has to go to this high, painful inflection point and stay there.

Krati: Mm,

Perpetua: And so it’s designed to cut, right?

And then the question is, are you bringing your professional self, if you’re a comedian, into your personal life? Like, you know, what’s funny on the stage may not necessarily be funny when it’s directed at your friend, or your family, or your loved one. There’s a hell of a difference. So, like, I love For The Watch, for instance, Uncle Roger, right?

He’s so funny. But that’s funny because he’s very aware that he’s playing on caricatures, he’s playing on, on stereotypes, and, you know, and, and so it’s funny in that context. But if somebody were doing that to me 24 7, I

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: be able to

take that.

Krati: Yeah. yeah, yeah. You’re right. This is a very valid criticism that has been leveled at me, , by friends and past few years of my life. I’ve been about cultivating subtlety ’cause I’m a very, very blunt person. I, what you see is exactly what you get, which I always thought was a great quality to have, but turns out that’s not so great when your friend is in a vulnerable place.

Perpetua: But you see, direct doesn’t always mean that you’re doing it in that comedian script that’s designed to, to have that punchline, right? You’re not doing it to be, just to have that punchline so that people will get a shock and laugh. This is, this is a completely different thing. So directness is, you know, I think it’s something that’s like, put it this way.

Okay. Like, I think we all, some of us fall more into the direct part of the spectrum. I think some of us fall onto the more subtle or ambiguous fake part of the spectrum and along the way we learn to sand off the rough edges And and meet at the other point, you know Like a meet to grow like some people learn to be a bit more this some people learn to be a bit more that and and they also learn to adapt it according to context and it’s just Yeah, like I was born pretty direct because when I was young I used to take Everything literally, that’s the way my brain functions, right?

And I had to, in my own geek speak, code for nuance, code for risk, code for failure, uncertainty. And that helped me to understand, you know, I’ve got to just move things a little bit more here and see the context, right? So, you know, it’s really not about, hey, you know, I’m just a direct person, or it’s so bad that I’m direct, or it’s so bad that I’m a bit fake.

It’s just sometimes the way that we are wired, and sometimes the way in which Our family, our schools have wired us to become.

Krati: One of my, the friend that criticized me for it, she presented it as, this is no longer about you. When somebody is, you know, you’re holding space for someone in those moments, forget yourself, forget what you are like. Be there for that person. That’s what friendship is supposed to be about. Um, and I think I’ve Wasn’t a good friend at the time.

I was always too direct, always too blunt. And my friends like, but you were making it about you. This is not about you. This is about them. Even if they’re, everything’s fine with them, but they’re sharing something with you focus on them. And if you don’t, you know, there’s always a golden rule is always, you don’t have anything nice to say.

Don’t say anything at all. And you’ve given us like a pretty good checklist. If it is not hurting them, maybe they were recounting something that happened long time back. If you don’t have anything pleasant to add or anything helpful to add, maybe just don’t say anything. I think this is, this is subtlety.

This is a version of subtlety that I think you have to cultivate. Like you said, work out those rough edges so they don’t end up hurting your friends.

Perpetua: Yeah, and it’s also about learning the rules of the game in friendship, right? Some people are just automatically very good. So I would share that when I was a kid, I was definitely, I would say, socially awkward, socially obtuse and just socially incompetent, okay? And sometimes people say, oh, it’s because nobody taught you social skills.

I’m like, no, people were dying to teach me social skills.

Krati: Yeah.

Perpetua: I just, my brain just couldn’t latch on to why on earth would I need social skills, right? So it was very, very bizarre. Like I said, it’s a miracle I even have friends growing up, right? Not knowing how to maintain those friendships. And, and so, like, Some people who are just not very good socially might be very good in other parts of life, just like some people who are very good at some parts of life might be not very good at those parts of life, might be really excellent socially.

So again, you know, it’s about, you know, what can I, how can I use my current strengths to catch up with what I’m not so good at? So, you know, along the way, we pick up the rules of the game. And so it’s not about beating yourself up, but rather learning from that. You know, I, I can tell you that I spent a whole bunch of my life beating myself up.

I mean, I’m Singaporean, I’m Chinese, I’m Catholic. Put that all together, BAM! Okay? It’s the, it’s a Molotov cocktail. But then like, it’s taken a long time to teach myself to genuinely, emotionally not beat myself up instead of just logically because being good to myself is neuroscientifically shown to be good for my health or my performance, right?

Um, you know, and actually like I think I read this quote that said that Beating yourself up is not going to change your past. And it’s also wasting your energy. I like to think about myself in terms of a battery. My brain is a battery, my body is a battery. So if I’m draining that battery then it makes no sense.

So over time I just learn to beat myself up less. So, you know, when I think about all the rules of the game I had no idea about in different parts of life, there’s a point in which we sit down and tell ourselves You know what? If somebody was born with the same set of cards, they would have the same OS too.

Okay? And the fact that my OS today is a lot more advanced, not perfect, but advanced compared to the prototype version of who I was, is actually something to celebrate, and use that celebration, that feeling good, that feeling, that pride, that sense of efficacy, that I can do it. That I’m brave enough, despite my fears, right?

Use that to launch me forward to becoming a better version of myself.

Krati: Yeah,

Perpetua: Whether it’s for myself or somebody else, this is the fact that I am growing. And I would have made a lot of mistakes in my life along the way. Things that if I look bad, I’m ashamed of. But I remember what Alain de Botton said. He said that if you’re looking back on your younger self and you don’t feel embarrassed,

Krati: yeah,

Perpetua: a

really bad sign.

Krati: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I do want to share, um, this,

like, I, you know, I shared with you how if

I find out

you’re cheating on your spouse, actively cheating, lying, sneaking around,

if I’m friends with your spouse, I’m gonna tell them, and if I’m not friends with them, If I don’t think I should interfere

and maybe there are kids involved, I’m gonna

Perpetua: mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm,

Krati: I cannot be part of that dynamic. So I

had a friend

Perpetua: mhm, mhm,

mhm,

Krati: was doing something they shouldn’t have been doing. And I had to walk away because I Again, there were kids involved, and I was gonna tell their, their partner that this, you know, this is what’s going, because you’re actively making a fool out of this person who adores you, by the way, and just couldn’t, couldn’t, couldn’t put up with that. So when I think me not taking their call sort of made them feel very guilty, sort of woke them up to, you know, what is actually what they’re doing, they came clean, and the relationship blew up. Um, for, uh, for a time they’re together now, but it blew up for a time and I was there for my friend and It was I really had to bite my tongue because at no point could I I was literally the only person they had left in their corner because you know, whenever couples break up people pick sides and Rarely do people pick the side of the person who was So I was the only person in their corner at that point.

I let that person back into my life. I was there and I had to learn not to, not once did I, cause there, you know, you, you go through the grief process where you also have this one stage where you’re trying to justify what you did and by everyone else is just not seeing what you’re seeing, you really have to bite your tongue.

You have to let them have their moment, let them. Rant and rave and I think that was the point and it turned out he’s just a lovely person Um, a friend of mine. I’m so glad they’re part of my life But you have I had to go through that and that was like the point where I had to Learn that sometimes the friendship isn’t about it’s about accountability, but it looks very different sometimes

Sometimes it’s really letting your friend turn their life into

crap pull apart all the pieces and then sit in it And then you sit in it with them and

then you, yeah, you, you’re right.

Like it’s, it’s something you have to figure out as you go forward, but it’s not

easy. And,

but I think there are very clear signs when your friendship is unhealthy.

You know, like people who come together because they’re

cheating, you

Perpetua: Yep. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Krati: there’s a mutual support club where I remember reading on Reddit about this girl who was in sort of like they were having

brunch together.

And one of them was like, Oh yeah, I’m seeing this person, this very married person said, but you know, the heart wants what the heart wants. I fell in love. I couldn’t help myself, you know, it’s love. And they came clean with their partner and they walked away. But the general consensus within that group was that yeah, even if you’re married, but you

fell in love with someone else, that’s cool

then.

That gives you some sort of moral

superior ground. And maybe, you know, and that person was like, I had to walk away from that group because I so did not

agree with them.

Perpetua: Mm hmm.

Krati: And I was like, yeah, that I, I don’t understand how. You sustain friendships through something

like that,

Perpetua: Mm hmm.

Krati: but again, it comes back to clarity of your own values, your own self, and if you’re going to continue to be part of that group, because

if that group is awesome in other ways,

then perhaps you can ignore

that bit.

Perpetua: Mm hmm.

Krati: And

continue,

because I think that’s part of

being an adult.

Perpetua: I think what you’re saying that if, you know, if the only string holding together this group, is this shared rationalization or reason for doing what they’re doing and nothing else, then you, and you don’t believe in that, then it’s okay to exit, that if this group has helped to gather many, many different strings and you, and, and net positive and you don’t, you don’t have to discuss this thing that you don’t care about or, or that, that, that draws you, then it’s okay.

That’s what you’re saying,

Krati: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because that’s happening more and more in this world right now. People, there’s so much, uh, polarization and everybody’s getting involved in pretty much everything. Uh, nobody, people no longer say that this is none of my business. Not going to get my life is going in this direction.

Let me just keep going in this direction. None of my business. What’s

Perpetua: yeah,

Krati: here. Everybody because of social

media, internet,

people feel compelled to get involved in everything. And I think that makes that there is this like, this is just a word of warning here. You, you gotta sort of look out for that happening with the thing that I mentioned about the friend who was cheating.

I was. He was forcing me to become part of something that I did not want to be a part of. I did not sign up for that. I did not sign up to actively fool another human being who was This lovely person. I did not sign up for that and you have to then decide whether you’re okay with that. Not okay with that.

How do you want this to play out? Because I don’t get to this. This is getting away from me. Um, yeah, but but my point is this is happening more and more. People are very opinionated, which is probably good for society in general, but then you have to figure out what you Signed up for what you do not want to be a part of and what is holding the friendship together because it is very insidious when you are constantly sharing ideologies and you are coming together to support each other

that

Perpetua: yeah,

Krati: spiral very

quickly.

Perpetua: basically what I’m hearing is converting each other to become more polarised. It’s phonetic radical versions of this belief and that’s the only thing that’s going on over here. So it becomes a very strong us versus them issue. And it’s just not very healthy for your brain because we know that when we become radical, we start also, um, not liking other people.

We start becoming completely intolerant. And this intolerance tends to splinter or like be a cancer that starts to migrate to different parts of our lives. So it’s It actually shrinks our world. And when we keep seeing things as us versus them, your threat center switches on. And I can tell you for sure that when that happens, your, when we, basically when your amygdala switches on or becomes too active, it’s hijacked your prefrontal cortex, then you go into tunnel vision mode.

And think about that, not just for one day. It’s happening for six months, one year. Those muscles are going to be so well practiced.

Krati: Yeah. Yeah.

Perpetua: be the

Krati: Yeah. Yeah. And correct me if you, like, tell me if you disagree with me, but I think it also means something so far as our personal standards are concerned. If you are coming out with a certain type of group, certain

type of people, it’s either going to raise your standards or it’s going to hurt your standards.

Do

Perpetua: Yeah,

Krati: with that? Do

you

think that’s a

Perpetua: I, I think so. I mean like the, this is really famous quote, right? I can’t remember who said that. But basically you are the, some average of the five people you spend the most time around. And this five people may not be people in like, you know, you see face to face flash to flesh, right? But you know, it could be people that you spend a lot of time talking to, texting, video, calling, or whatever it is, because your friend’s values either.

They are infectious. So if I’m always around people who don’t take care of their health, I’m likely not to take care of my health. Or I’m likely to feel bad about taking care of my health. Because you’re going to, even though the science shows X, Y, Z, even though the experts say X, Y, Z, it’s easy to doubt yourself because what you’re doing is the odd thing out.

And these groups could punish the changes that you’re making. So, you know, if you’re a friend who have certain values, you’re a friend who always see the world as a mean, horrible place, you know, I’m always going to have this kind of level of success only, or people who are successful are bad. Eventually, you’re going to espouse that.

So, you know, it’s like, I remember when I first moved to England, I was very excited about having four seasons for the first time in my life. And people would ask me, Oh, you know, um, England, oh, what do you think about it in the winter? And I remember five or six years I was saying, I love winter in England.

And they looked at me like I’m crazy. And I said, I get to buy gorgeous winter coats, I get to wear my gorgeous boots, and I get to see snow, I get to feel cold, I don’t have to sweat 24 7. I think that is a great thing. But then every day, oh it’s such a great day, such a great day, started to seep into my consciousness.

And one day I woke up saying those words. And then I started feeling like crap. It took me some time to draw, connect dots, and realize that, ah. It’s me uttering the same words over and over again, and then feeling like crap about winter. So I decided I’m going to reclaim winter. I’m going to have fun, I’m going to remember what’s good about it, and I’m not going to pretend that I don’t like some grey dates, right?

I’m not going to make everything all Pollyanna ish and positive. But you can see that just from a social, cultural perspective, When, uh, when a certain phrase, a certain belief is uttered over and over again that can affect the way you see life, the way you see yourself, the way you see your worth, your potential.

So, the people, the company that you keep is absolutely important, especially when we’re talking about this main company. And it’s also really important to be clear, like, you know, there’s some people that you hang out for for certain reasons. Like, you know, let’s say, um, Some people I know, uh, they might be part of, say, a cycling group, right?

And the only thing they do is they do sports, and then they share a meal. And this person might not be even close to the cycling group. And that’s fine, because they understand the parameters of this relationship. And they’ve got friendships and other relationships that support them or that influence them in bigger, deeper ways.

That’s alright. If I have groups that are just pure fun,

and nothing too personal, great. Then I’m aware of those parameters, so they will not be the top 5 people who become the sum of which of who I’m going to be.

Krati: yeah, yeah. This is such a huge point because I doubt many people Because you know, sometimes friendships just happen organically, you

are, you

just, some, someone you meet in the corridor

of the hospital or some, some other place, a shopping mall, whatever, and you don’t really, you’re not doing those calculations, those computations in your brain, you just met a cool person, you’re hanging out, and now the friendship is getting deeper.

Rarely do we sort of sit and Wander or sit and yes, I would use the word calculate just how this friendship is impacting my mental health my motivation The goals that i’m picking my efficacy. I think that is something I think you make an amazing point and we need to be mindful of that because I think if you hang out with people who are And again, this is happening so frequently now, if you’re constantly hanging out with people who are making it okay for you to rant and rave and complain and just, you know,

think life is shit. Life really, it’s, it’s like a self fulfilling prophecy

then.

Perpetua: Definitely. Yeah.

Krati: impact your mental health

also?

Perpetua: If you’re hearing all those words being echoed over and over again, you know, they get stored in your memory, in different parts of your memory, and it’s hard not to tear yourself away from that, because something repeated too often becomes the truth, because a lot of things, our brain has no capacity to consciously process every single thing that’s going on in our life on a day to day basis.

So what does it do? Our brain goes through all these shortcuts and heuristics, got this different software, uh, metaphorically that goes, okay, this goes into this part, that goes into this part, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not affecting us, it’s not accumulating in terms of compound interest. Mm

Krati: yeah, so true. You know, um, the other thing that we, that, that I brought up with

you was people in friendship dynamics where we are making fun of The person like that is just how our approach to friendship and the other person is not supposed to get hurt

because you know, because if you get hurt and you react and you are the party pooper, you’re the person who clearly doesn’t know how to take a joke and you’re made to feel bad about it.

I think that is something else that happens a lot in friendships, and the person making fun is the cool person

with the excellent sense of humor, the comedian in the

group, and,

Perpetua: Mm

hmm.

Krati: the other person is clearly too

sensitive, but

that’s something else I think, uh, I would like to talk about, and I think I would like to put it out there, because we need to guard ourselves, because it can be very difficult when everyone expects you to be a good

sport, and

You no longer if you it almost feels like you don’t have the right to

feel your feelings.

Perpetua: Yeah, or you don’t have the right to not be mocked. I mean, that’s insane, right? It’s like people saying, it’s like asking somebody, what do you expect in a relationship? And they say, Oh, I expect this person not to beat me up. I’m like, how is that expectation? That’s not even, uh, that’s not even a hygiene factor.

Or some people say I expect to be treated. Respectfully, right? And I think to myself, how is that even an expectation? That should be a hygiene factor, not to be treated disrespectfully. You shouldn’t even have to articulate that. So sometimes we find ourselves in groups where the dynamic has solidified into very obvious roles.

You know, somebody’s the cool, fun one who can say shit. And, but if you even microdose that same amount of humor back at them. You’re in trouble. That’s because you are disrupting the power dynamic and It’s becomes shaky. It threatens them and it’s like you are acting out of place It’s kind of like, you know, imagine back in back in the day when talking about say the Chinese Emperor, you know Like the eunuch talking out of line the prince talking out of line or the same thing in the courtier in When Machiavelli was writing of the prince, right the courtier speaking out of line and but it thinks that we are not Acting that way.

You know, there’s no like obvious, uh, power hierarchy that is, that is institutionalized in this case, in a friendship group. But however, this become un unspoken norms and expectations. And when you are expected to act that way and not be able to deviate, then you have to consider that you are in this. And if this, the only thing that is your function in this group.

Then you have to consider the possibility that that is your only role in this group to become the stooge. And becoming the stooge also serves this group as a wider purpose because it’s a way of deterrent and punishment. Because it tells people if you act out of line, this is going to happen to you. So in Social groups, there’s a phenomenon where, you know, you think that, okay, if I remove this person from this role, then everything’s going to be fine and dandy, this person is a troublemaker.

But no, these groups are structured in a way where nature abhors this vacuum. So somebody else is going to fill that vacuum and become the new stooge, the new scapegoat, the new whipping boy. And then, you know, and then you think, okay, if I just remove this queen bee, Everything’s going to be fine. But again, because these groups are structured, where the power dynamic or the function or the role or the purpose is not exactly very healthy, right?

Um, and we can agree that this is not healthy for your brain, your nervous system, your heart, or just generally your growth as a human being or your self worth. So, remove this Queen Bee. Somebody else is going to feel that vacuum. Mm

Krati: is a huge, huge point and I didn’t even think about that. That’s huge. Yeah. If the group is structured in a certain way and that way in itself is

unhealthy,

Perpetua: hmm.

Krati: there is no, I, I highly doubt that because a group would have a few members. I highly doubt that all of them would change to something else.

Then maybe walking away is

your best

Perpetua: Yeah, yeah. Especially if you realize what’s going on and you’ve outgrown it, or you, or you know, sometimes we play a certain role at certain points in our lives, or a certain chapter that’s going on in a bigger backdrop of, of life, of the world, right? And that’s okay to outgrow this, and there’s no, there’s no blind loyalty, because sometimes, you know, as women or men who are brought up to be nice instead of kind, um, Nice instead of decent, we are trained to over function and over give.

And in this case, we misplace loyalty. So, just because somebody did a small kindness for you, you overpay it by an infinite number of times. And your loyalty to this person or this group is stuck at, Oh, but this person did this for me. You forget exactly why. And you are also taught to keep repaying and repaying.

And so you feel guilty for even daring to think you have outgrown this group. And actually in this sense, there’s no loyalty or no gratitude lost.

Krati: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I should point out because at some point at, in, during the initial part of our conversation, I shared that I have a group of friends. We always make fun of each other. I want to clarify that by no means am I condoning that. This group was formed with a very clear purpose of pushing each other to do certain things.

Like we’ve shared our goals with each other and we want to achieve those goals in 2025. Like we’re very clear with each other. And the purpose of this group is to make sure that we stay on track. So humor is something is our, like our go to tool to cope sometimes with life. So we’re always funny. We’ll send each other funny stickers that, Oh, like today, this morning I was complaining about, um, Oh man, I got a migraine today.

Could barely get out of bed. It was so hard to work out and my friend’s like, hold on. Life’s about to get way worse. So it’s like, so we, we send each other stickers. The purpose of that group is the WhatsApp group. It’s a WhatsApp group is to sort of motivate each other through humor. It is, at no point is it cruel.

We don’t make comments on each other’s, uh, abilities. We, there’s, there are no personal mockery going on here. There’s no, at no point does anybody say, Oh, you’re not capable of this.

We make fun of sort of the ideas we use to

hold ourselves

back. Very, very nuanced, but I just want to make sure that, you know, I don’t send out the wrong message where you think I’m condoning that sort of behavior.

I am not because I’ve been at the receiving end of this kind of bullshit. And no, it’s not cool. It is so not cool. And it can make you feel so desperately lonely. When you’re parts of such you

think you have friends.

You don’t,

Perpetua: Yep. And that’s actually worth to feel lonely when you’re in company of people.

Krati: yes, it’s way worse. You, you should rather be alone with a good book than be around people like that, because, you know, you talked about how your, we talked about how friends that we spend a lot of time around will affect how we perceive life or

Perpetua: Mm hmm.

Krati: They also impact your self

image.

Perpetua: Oh, totally.

Krati: You do not want to

be someone who sits and

takes it

Perpetua: Yeah.

Krati: because that is not

the approach

you want to bring to

life

Perpetua: Yep, because eventually you become this person who thinks I can take any crap, I can tolerate any crap, and people will throw crap at you. So you become what you believe. And a lot of our thoughts, a lot of our ideas of the world, ideas about ourselves, are completely invisible. So, if this is solidifying as your identity that you’re not even aware of, or Embarrassing to even point out, you know, nobody wants to say, I’m here to take crime.

Right? Or, you know, or, or I’m, I’m just like a, a sto, a whipping boy or whipping goal. Then you start to attract and magnetize more of this, we call this repetition compulsion In psychology,

Krati: sorry.

Can you repeat the

Perpetua: we call, we call this

repetition compulsion in psychology where something that has hurt is, has caused some kind of trauma where there’s a big T trauma or a small T trauma.

starts to make us go into similar situations because your brain is trying to gain resolution from the initial hurt. Except that your brain is unconsciously throwing you into situations that are similar. And if there are similar situations, then of course, you’re never going to heal. You’re never going to get this resolution.

So what happens when this keeps repeating 5 times, 10 times? You think it’s a curse. You think it’s a bad magic spell.

Krati: Okay. I

have

to

Perpetua: your

identity.

Krati: yeah, I have two questions I like if somebody is constantly gravitating towards people who

are not healthy for them they may be wonderful people in their own right, but their ideal friendship is It’s not great, or at least not healthy for this particular person, but they keep gravitating towards them.

Cause that does happen. Like you said, repetition, compulsion.

Some people just keep their whole life is, can be summed up in terms of

patterns. What personal quality do you think somebody needs to cultivate to be able to pick out good friends, to be able to attract

healthy friendships?

Perpetua: Boundaries. You need to have very strong boundaries. And boundaries isn’t just about, Oh, I know how to say no. It’s really about one, actually knowing you have the permission to say no, and two, having the skills and the scripts to say no. And then, of course, you know, the ability to believe in that, which is linked to the permission bit.

So that means that if you express your boundary, and this person does not adhere to that, or does not consistently follow up on that, instead they mock you or make you feel like crap, then it’s a sign. So it’s a sign that this person is not healthy for you. So the ability to have boundaries is very important.

The ability to have standards in what kind of people you want to hang out with that are closest to you. So we’re not talking just about acquaintances, you know, like, you know, like there’s, there can be some people I might eat with that I don’t really care about, but you know, it’s just like, I’m supposed to hang out with a friend of a friend because I’m trying to do, I’m doing a favor or whatever.

That’s different, right? They don’t know my innermost thoughts. They don’t know a lot of things about me. I’m very clear about this demarcation in my head and in my behaviors. So that’s cool with me. But then when I’m talking about deepest friendships, be very aware of what your boundaries and your standards do not be afraid to raise the standards and Walk away.

It’s about cultivating that thick skin, about understanding that a lot of these things is not personal. If a person is whipping you for making a change in your private life that may not even affect them, then how is that their business?

Krati: Yes, yes, yes. Now, this other question that I have, I think this is more, especially like this is for everyone, but especially for people who have mental health issues, especially where they need a lot of support. If you identify that the support you have in your life is, has too high a cost to it, and you want to sort of, Have nicer, better, more supportive, healthier friendships. Do you walk away from, especially, you know, people when they’re making transition from one phase of life to another, we will often notice, uh, especially if you’ve been in depression for a long time, at least this was my experience, you would notice that you’ve attracted a certain kind of crowd that is kind of.

where your depression sort of makes it possible for you to not see that this isn’t,

these are not the greatest of people to have. And then you’re making a transition. Is it, what would you advise a person to do? Should they walk away from all of their friendships? Start fresh? Do you think that’s even possible where we sort of choose to be solitary because is

not comfortable

for a lot

Perpetua: It’s not, it’s not good for your brain either. You know, like your brain actually undergoes discernible measurable changes when you isolate yourself. So that’s a difference. So we’re not talking about going to what’s completely black and white and isolating yourself. Okay. So we are thinking about how, okay.

You know, like what stops a lot of us from moving on or even making a change to our terms of interaction is guilt. It’s fear of rocking the boat. And so, so Loyalty, right? Loyalty to this, this, this, like this misplaced, overblown gratitude that to this people or to this group. And actually, you’re not wrong in saying that there’s some sense of gratitude and loyalty.

Because this person or this group served you for the person that you are, that you were, for the person, um, for the life situations that you found yourself in. So, that’s not to say they’re completely bad, you’re not going to erase them, or pretend that there’s nothing good about that, especially for that old version of yourself, with a different kind of idea and perspective, and different OS.

So, be very clear about that. And, that doesn’t mean that you need to carry that forward, if the string that is holding this friendship, or this relationship, or group together, is just this one thread, that is not going to serve. The next versions of who you are.

Krati: yeah, this is amazing. Okay, I have to say, I mean, um, we’ve discussed a lot. In this conversation, I think what you pointed out doing your boundaries, knowing you’re having clear standards. I think that has a lot to do with you knowing yourself and I always ask this. Whenever we have a discussion about relationship, always wants to grow.

Why you’re significant, uh, work personal growth work while you’re part of the relationship. Does it have to happen before you enter a relationship? Yeah. And the answer I always get is, well, that work will never be done. You’re always growing. So you, you can’t exactly sit on the sidelines for as long as that work is happening.

You, you’ve got to throw yourself into life and have your relationships, have your friendships and grow as

part of them. So I think, but you have given us an excellent blueprint here. I would ask my listeners to like, listen to you. I mean, so many of my listeners have pointed out that you are amazing. All of the advice you offer is amazing.

Don’t listen so much to me. ’cause I am

still

figuring this

out, like massively

Perpetua: all are.

Krati: I get so much of this wrong. I like, I’m balancing, like I said, my bluntness with my subtlety. I’m very comfortable being alone, so sometimes I feel like I, I very deliberately mess things up like I . So, yeah, don’t, don’t, don’t listen to me, listen to Petra.

I think you have shared amazing things with us. I’m gonna stop the

recording here.

Perpetua: hmm.

Krati: We’re going to talk more about knowing yourself better, reclaiming yourself, uh, and then we’re going to develop that further, um, dive deeper into that.